I built a pair of these about a year ago, and other than the occasional listening session I haven't really used them because I don't like them. I have the Alpair 7.3 in them and expected to be blown away, but really I just think they sound lifeless.
I've listened to some vocals, and these sound good. But anything, and I mean anything, that has any real dynamics just sound bad. If there is bass, fuhgedaboudit. I knew not to expect them to be great with that, but they just don't sound right to me. For comparison, I've also built 3 pairs of the Lance speakers with the FF85wk, and even though these are small, I find that I get enough bass to be satisfied. You just don't expect much from them, but they deliver more than you'd expect. I said in another thread somewhere that I could live with these if I had to downsize.
So what I'm asking is if anybody in NYC (Brooklyn or Manhattan is best) has a pair of Frugal Horns that I could hear so I can see if maybe I just missed something on my build. I could bring my pair to A/B too, but even just hearing another pair would be good. I'll bring the beer, homebrew if I have any left! (I make really good beer.)
I've listened to some vocals, and these sound good. But anything, and I mean anything, that has any real dynamics just sound bad. If there is bass, fuhgedaboudit. I knew not to expect them to be great with that, but they just don't sound right to me. For comparison, I've also built 3 pairs of the Lance speakers with the FF85wk, and even though these are small, I find that I get enough bass to be satisfied. You just don't expect much from them, but they deliver more than you'd expect. I said in another thread somewhere that I could live with these if I had to downsize.
So what I'm asking is if anybody in NYC (Brooklyn or Manhattan is best) has a pair of Frugal Horns that I could hear so I can see if maybe I just missed something on my build. I could bring my pair to A/B too, but even just hearing another pair would be good. I'll bring the beer, homebrew if I have any left! (I make really good beer.)
Definitely something going pear-shaped there. Exactly what is difficult to say without being able to physically examine them.
From the description, it sounds like you're not getting any cabinet gain to speak of. First port of call would be to check the damping quantities & reduce that, especially if there is any in the front section below the driver to see if that makes a difference, since the almost total absence of LF output suggests they may be over-damped. If reducing that improves things dramatically, well & good, issue solved. If it doesn't, then there has to be either an issue with both drivers (unlikely), or with the construction. The most probable culprit in the case of the latter is a leak-path bleeding off pressure and killing the cabinet gain; the internal baffle & the point (throat) of the horn above the internal choke are where that's most likely to occur.
From the description, it sounds like you're not getting any cabinet gain to speak of. First port of call would be to check the damping quantities & reduce that, especially if there is any in the front section below the driver to see if that makes a difference, since the almost total absence of LF output suggests they may be over-damped. If reducing that improves things dramatically, well & good, issue solved. If it doesn't, then there has to be either an issue with both drivers (unlikely), or with the construction. The most probable culprit in the case of the latter is a leak-path bleeding off pressure and killing the cabinet gain; the internal baffle & the point (throat) of the horn above the internal choke are where that's most likely to occur.
That would certainly give us some idea about what's happening.
As a very quick & dirty check, play some material with reasonable output in the < 100Hz range and put your hand over the internal choke at the bottom of the enclosure. If there's little / no air movement, then either they're over-damped, or there's a leak somewhere.
As a very quick & dirty check, play some material with reasonable output in the < 100Hz range and put your hand over the internal choke at the bottom of the enclosure. If there's little / no air movement, then either they're over-damped, or there's a leak somewhere.
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Indeed, having built numerous pairs of many different enclosure designs using both drivers mentioned - and as much of an eye opener as the Lance is - there must be something amiss here.
The closed tip is certainly the hardest joint to seal completely, which is why I've incorporated the scarfe joint and small angled gluing wedge in all my builds and the flat pack kits of all 3 models in the FH series.
As well, I've found it possible to over-damp when using the A7s - I certainly found that with my Pensils, as well as the current A12PW MTM monolith - in both of which I ended up with approx 1/ to 1/2 of the recommended fill level.
The closed tip is certainly the hardest joint to seal completely, which is why I've incorporated the scarfe joint and small angled gluing wedge in all my builds and the flat pack kits of all 3 models in the FH series.
As well, I've found it possible to over-damp when using the A7s - I certainly found that with my Pensils, as well as the current A12PW MTM monolith - in both of which I ended up with approx 1/ to 1/2 of the recommended fill level.
I'll check all the joints for leaks. I used a dado for the internal panel and it was a very tight fit, and sealed that and all the outside panels with silicone. I'll check the point, but I recall sealing that as well, and went through pains to make that a tight fit.
My other thought is the actual material used. It was engineered wood flooring, with very tight tolerances in its build. Maybe it isn't air-tight, but I doubt it.
My other thought is the actual material used. It was engineered wood flooring, with very tight tolerances in its build. Maybe it isn't air-tight, but I doubt it.
I checked phasing, and that was correct. I took the drivers out, and checked the internal seals, and they were all silicone sealed as I remembered, except I couldn't check the top. I did a really good job of gluing the felt in so I couldn't get to the seam. There is also a seam in the flooring that wasn't sealed though, but that seam is where they click together and that is very tight. I could apply a bead of silicone just to be sure.
So that leaves the driver seal, which I suspect could be an issue. I did not rabbet the driver because I had chamfered the back too deep before I realized I need to do the recess. Oh well, but the driver seal when flush mounted left something to be desired. I have the rubber backing, but I'll add some foam to it too.
I won't get to any of this until the weekend.
So that leaves the driver seal, which I suspect could be an issue. I did not rabbet the driver because I had chamfered the back too deep before I realized I need to do the recess. Oh well, but the driver seal when flush mounted left something to be desired. I have the rubber backing, but I'll add some foam to it too.
I won't get to any of this until the weekend.
Late last night I finally got to look at one of them closely, put it on my workbench and check all the seals closely. I did see one gap in the top, and I applied a bead of silicone on all of the seams where there wasn't any before. I may try to rip out the felt so I can do the top, or at least check if I did it in the first place. Since it was late I didn't get to finish up the job by doing the driver seal itself. I'm still thinking it is the driver seal that isn't airtight.
Maybe tonight...
Maybe tonight...
Well, I went and filled every corner and seam with silicone, put foam around the drivers, added and subtracted stuffing. And I still don't like them. I get bass, they create a solid image, the vocals are astounding sometimes. But they just don't have the oomph that I get from my main speakers. I've had them connected to my main system for a few days now, modded Rega TT, Ortofon Quintet Blue MC cartridge, Boozhound MC pre, Aikido pre-amp, 6B4G PP amp based on an ST-70. Vinyl doesn't sound good as the speakers don't produce the deep bass I know I get. Pandora, which is marginal at best, does a little better because it doesn't have deep bass to begin with.
I'm listening to softer music, Melody Gardot, Simon and Garfunkel, jazz standards, nothing resembling rock. I haven't tried piano music so maybe I will. When I listened to anything heavier in the past they fell apart.
I still would like to audition another pair, so if anyone in the NYC area has them I'd love to take a listen. I'll bring the beer, homebrew if I have any left.
I'm listening to softer music, Melody Gardot, Simon and Garfunkel, jazz standards, nothing resembling rock. I haven't tried piano music so maybe I will. When I listened to anything heavier in the past they fell apart.
I still would like to audition another pair, so if anyone in the NYC area has them I'd love to take a listen. I'll bring the beer, homebrew if I have any left.
My main speakers started as the Proac 2.5 clones that were a popular DIY project about 10 years ago. I made modification as per Troels' recommendations, replacing the tweeter and adjusting the x-over. I've been happy with them since.
Scan-speak 9500 tweeter and 8535 woofer in a ported floorstanding cabinet. They go down to about 25hz with ease, and I think that is what makes them hard to replace. The tweeter is no slouch either.
Scan-speak 9500 tweeter and 8535 woofer in a ported floorstanding cabinet. They go down to about 25hz with ease, and I think that is what makes them hard to replace. The tweeter is no slouch either.
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