3-Way home cinema

de45dd

Member
2013-01-30 3:49 pm
Hello,

I am planing to build a three way speaker for my upcoming home cinema in the style of an Genelec 1237A. That means 12 inch bass + 6,5 inch midrange + 1 inch compression driver. Midrange and compression driver should run in a waveguide. I am planing to use the Limmer 630. To match the compression driver to the Limmer 630 I need to print an adapter with my 3d printer.
Opening of the Limmer 630 for midrange is 13cm. That means midrange should be in this size range (inner surround to inner surround)
Limmerhorns - 630

Planned crossover frequency is about 250-400Hz and 1,5khz - 2khz.
The chassis should be in WTM arrangement (from top to bottom) with tweeter aming to main listening postion. The speaker should be placed directly on the wall with the front angled 7° to the bottom. This should look like this:
https://s19.directupload.net/images/191224/cvmdccp6.png

The 12 inch woofer should run in about 20 liters closed box and will be crossed at about 60-80hz to an DBA system.

The system should run completely active with an Hypex fa253.
The system should be able to run 105db reference volume at main listening (3 meters away which means about 10db loss).

Current Favourites for the 12 inch woofer:
BMS 12S305
BMS 12N804
Beyma 12LEX1300Nd
PHL 4310Ndu
PHL 4531
Eighteensound 12NTLW3500
Eighteensound 12NLW9300
Ciare 12.75LW-44
Faital 12FX600
B&C 12PLB100
A&D SCB12N500XL

Current Favorites for midrange:
PHL 1120
PHL 1660
PHL 1752Ndu
Ciare NDK6-1.5
Faital 6PR160
Faital 6PR122
Beyma 6MCF200Nd
B&C 6MD38
B&C 6MDN44


Current Favorites for tweeter:
Faital HF108 (I am already using in koax system)
B&C DE360
BMS 5530Nd (HE)
Eighteensound NSD1095N

Now it would be nice to get some experiences, compares or measurments of the drivers mentioned above. Which woofer, midrange, tweeter you would prefer and why? Did someone of you hear the drivers mentioned above? How do you rate them? Or do you maybe prefer another one? Would be nice to get some experiences to find an decision which drivers to use.
Maximum sound quality is on first postion over maximum spl.
 
Last edited:

Trollet

Member
Paid Member
2015-07-20 9:35 pm
Westcoast
Hi.
I have worked mostley with Beyma. The 12LEX I belive will not perform as you wish in this case.
I would go for P80ND instead paired with 6P200 or 6P40ND.
The 6MCF200ND falls of to early.
Tweeter HF108 looks good, but I use CP380 most often, it has nice response.

Merry Christmas

Figge
 

kipman725

Member
Paid Member
2007-06-10 12:41 pm
Warrington
Looking at the compression drivers:

1) Faital HF108: Test Bench - Faital Pro’s HF108/HF108R compression drivers coupled with LTH102 60deg x 50deg horn | audioXpress - low distortion at 1kHz and high output. Some breakup issues > 15 Khz which are affecting off axis polars and causing a rise in harmonic distortion at 8 kHz. One thing to be aware of is that there is a short conical horn built into the driver which may limit dispersion in your application (front of the driver is not the front of the phase plug).

2) B&C DE360 Test Bench: B&C Speakers DE360-8 1” Exit Pro Sound Compression Driver | audioXpress Has a slightly smaller 1.5" VC which seems to result in more harmonic distortion than the HF108, might breakup a bit higher in frequency but hard to tell. Given a 1.5kHz crossover probably a worse choice.

3) BMS 5530Nd (HE) I think this has been reviewed in a recent issue of voice coil magazine which is available via free subscription. It supports a very low crossover but (I may be remembering this wrong) the sound output is via reflectors.

4) Eighteensound NSD1095N: Differs from the other drivers in that its a specially coated Ti diaphragm to get more stiffness. So instead of trying to use a polymer diaphragm to damp breakup its trying to push that breakup as high as possible in frequency. Can't find any independent data but the manufacturer data looks promising. The things that stood out to me is that it claims a coherent wave front to 20 kHz and pistonic behaviour, normally you would have to use a beryllium diaphragm to get this. Other good characteristics are the high flare rate opening and shorting ring. I would get this one despite the lack of independent data.
 
Interesting project.

Some advice;

Choose a realistic sensitivity ( such as 94 or 95db ) if you're convinced you need a compression driver for the top end. You can easily do 90db with more HiFi like parts.

If 94-95db, then you're not going to find a 12" ( Pro ) woofer that goes down to 60 or 80 hz within a sealed enclosure that's so tiny ( ie; 20 Litres > 0.7 cu' ).
- You'll want about twice that volume to help make your ( LF ) numbers work .

The name of the game here is to run some box/woofer ( predictions/sims ) for all your possible choices ( before anything else ).

If it were my project, I'd be checking out an Eminence Alpha-6cbmra .
- That particular unit has been used with great success by DIYSG in their HT series, the Titan-615LX.
- Read the product reviews, there's no mention of this 6" mid being a weak link of any type ( the crooked response is pretty easy to deal within a typical band-pass circuit ).
titan_615_speaker_kit.jpg


The iconic Audax PR170 is of course reflected in the DNA of many of the mids that you've listed above.
- Since I have those here, I'd try them out second ( 2nd only because constructing the mid enclosure is something I wouldn't mind avoiding if a sealed-back mid will do the job ).

I would also see if the B&C de10 ( 1" VC, 1" exit ) driver would suffice for top end duties.
- FWIW ( and IME ) a 1" ( 25mm ) domed diaphragm driver will be a bit more HiFi-ish ( all other things being equal ) if that matters here ( such as music playback ).

As I said, interesting project.

Good Luck with it ! ( & please post some pics once you move forward )


:)
 
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de45dd

Member
2013-01-30 3:49 pm
If 94-95db, then you're not going to find a 12" ( Pro ) woofer that goes down to 60 or 80 hz within a sealed enclosure that's so tiny ( ie; 20 Litres > 0.7 cu' ).
- You'll want about twice that volume to help make your ( LF ) numbers work .


The speaker will be place directly on the wall which will give me some extra spl.
Also I am running completely active so it shouldn´t be a problem boosting the lower end a bit.
 

NiToNi

Member
2004-10-06 12:25 pm
Troels Gravesen uses the 6RS140 in his speaker Faital-3WC and seems to be very impressed. He has also switched from a CD to a dome tweeter, the SB29BAC-C000-4, which you may want to consider.

You can check it out here: Faital-3WC

Will you be running the 12” in some sort of horn or waveguide too or just open? If so, have you thought about directivity transition at the M-W crossover?

A 12” is often coupled with a 1” 90x60 horn (e.g. SEOS-12 or like in the Limmer 630) at 1200-1400Hz for smooth directivity transition. That would also save you complexity and money.

Or a Limmer 250 with a 1.4” CD (e.g. Radian 951 or 18Sound) and a nice 15” from say 850Hz down. This should reach your cutoff target in the bottom a bit easier than a pro 12”. That horn is not dissimilar to JBL’s M2 although I’m not sure whether pattern flip would be a (real-world audible) issue with a the 110 x 50 ratio.
 

YSDR

Member
2013-11-24 8:13 pm
Is this project have some progress or built already? Just out of curiosity.

Here is a rare independent test for the NSD1095N CD along with other 1" units from the competition. The TiN coating didn't showed it's theoretical advantage in the measurements with it's stiffness to push the break-up higher compared to the non-coated ND1090. The break-up of the TiN diaphragm seems worse than the regular Ti version. But here is the data to judge:

Grand Comparatif de Compressions 1 pouce - JustDIYIt !
 

de45dd

Member
2013-01-30 3:49 pm
I ended up with Faital 15FH530, PHL 1120 and Faital HF108. PHL and Faital in Limmer 630BC1 double waveguide.
Crossoverpoints 380 and 1900hz. Crossover has been done passiv/analog.
Box is still under developement but I am happy so far.
 

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So, you have an on-axis null. I guess you will only be listening to reflections. Honestly, I have no idea how such a system sounds. How will this works when a movie pans a dialogue from LCR to a side surround?
Speakers can be set in phase or opposite phase but never tried lol...
To me it's to create a field of effect, there is no ''reality''...
I am no movie specialist but I don't know a movie with dialogues from behind...
I guess it's a bit like these new front atmosphere speakers...
That said I fell asleep in the middle of matrix 4 last night...