2x6.5" Vs 8"/10" single

[jahstation]

For home use what do you think for a sub for electronic/reggae/bass music?

A double reflex with 2 6.5" or a single 8" or even 10".

i found 6.5" with 55hz fs and 87db, so +3db for double speaker if im not wrong...
against things with 30hz fs and spl around 88/90db

suggestion wellcome before time/money wasting

 

[planet10]

Using 2 woofers in a box allows you to take advantage of push-push loading to actively cancel reactive forces and dramatically reduce the load on the box.

Typically an 8” or 10” will go lower thou. Note that 2 x 6.5” is closer to the size of a single 8”. 2 8s are ballpark equivalent to a 10”.

dave

 

[Think]

I like to see some names and links of what you are writing about before I 'waste' my time on guessing.
And please be more specific where you want to use it for and in combination with what kind of (main/top) speakers and amp.

 

[planet10]

Names of woofers?

Or the concept of push-push and active force cancelation?

You can get a proper idea of the actual differences of how much air movement for specific drivers by comparing swept volumes. Driver cone area is a 1st order thing to compare but does not take Xmax into consideration.

Here is a peak at the inside of our twin SDX10 woofer:

dave

 

[Think]

Sorry planet10/Dave, I was writing to the TS.

But if I would use only 2 woofers I would put them in 2 separate boxes as good placement has more influence on SQ then push-push and active force cancellation.

No free lunches, so getting the right type, size and amount depends on the job.

IMO most people are best off with sealed subs when used indoors, because of the room gain which will compensate for the roll off on the low end.

 

[KaffiMann]

I think best value for money if most of europe would be a couple Beyma 12BR70 in closed boxes.
My almost 9 year old daughter has 2 in her room, not in closed boxes, about 120 liter T-TQWT each.
A couple closed boxes 55-60 liters each would probably be more than enough.

 

[jahstation]

thanks to all contributors.
I didnt place data because right now the discussion is philosophical.

My skills in project sub from the scratch are close to zero, so this is the first challenge, and having such kind of confrontation with more skilled builders to me is the basic to build my trusting!

the goal is design a 3 way system, that in my mind is:
-a sub part
-a mid 5"x2
-a tweeter

keep in mind that this project is far from be the best multiway speaker that u have heard, but more a thing builded to have in litlle the fashion or the jamaican soundsystem: so it will be mono, and all in one coloumn (the two things are strictly related, i imagine that there is no sense to make stereo for just one source).

So the hard part is making the thing little as much is possible and still have some bass. hard!

the little sub needs to have some jamaican flavour, so it will looks as a scoop, but having a backloaded horn for driver that are smaller than 15" imo have no sense.
So the compromise size is 6.5" , in a fake scoop that will be a reflex.
keeping in mind that 6,5*2= 13" thats make me thinking that in same space i can fit a single 10" maybe layed down as bandpass, with some fake speaker in front that simulate the scoop fashion. So that is the nature of the question.

 

[KaffiMann]

Ok.
So just to check if I understand you correctly, is it #1 or #2?:
1. You want a big badass FAKE mono speaker setup, that in reality is using small cheap drivers.

2. You want a tiny scaled down backloaded horn, emulating the big classic "hog scoops".

Alternative 1 takes much more work than it's worth. Just get a cheap 15" and do it right, you will end up with less damage to your wallet.

Alternative 2 can be done, which size constraints/goals do you have?

 

[jahstation]

Ok.
So just to check if I understand you correctly, is it #1 or #2?:
1. You want a big badass FAKE mono speaker setup, that in reality is using small cheap drivers.

2. You want a tiny scaled down backloaded horn, emulating the big classic "hog scoops".

Alternative 1 takes much more work than it's worth. Just get a cheap 15" and do it right, you will end up with less damage to your wallet.

Alternative 2 can be done, which size constraints/goals do you have?

first of all
hog scoop != scoop.

then

making a 6.5" reproduce 18m wave lenght is big dream offcourse

so

nobody talks about cheap stuff! so why introduce it as option?
u didnt get the point of start:
it a compromise beetwen a looking fashion and a sound result.
if I need bass i can simpli mount one of my scoop in my bedroom, but is not a good idea now!

option 1:
6.5"x2 single reflex sub, dont mind about scoop now, it will looks like...but the loading will be reflex. ( imagine a port in the back or under for example..)

option2:
having in mind that 6.5x2=13" circa, make me thinking about fit just one 10" driver in te same space.

so who will be louder?

option1 with Volumex2 or option2 with the same volumex2 used by just one 10" speaker?

possible candidate:
Dayton Audio DCS165-4 - 6.5" SubwooferTang Band W6-1139SIF 6-1/2" Paper Cone Subwoofer Speaker

on 10" needs more investigations...

 

[Think]

This 6.5" in post #1 is an other one, as these have a fs of 35.7 and 35 Hz.
Don't know what you want with the scoop thing or looks.....

IMO for best SQ for a bedroom, 2 of either of these in sealed boxes are great; 1 in the corner and the other you move out of the same corner until you like the sound.

You can compare 2x 6.5" to a 8" in surface area (Sd) but the xmax is just as important as Sd x Xmax = Vd (Volume displacement); the bigger the louder below ~40Hz.
The tangband has almost double the xmax so can output almost as much as 2 daytons. But both will be more then enough if you have neighbors.

Put them in win isd in 5-20 liter boxes to see which goes lower before they start to roll off. I guess the Dayton.

 

[jahstation]

thats is just a rough test, is 3+db for the double speaker enough to say that is maybe better going for the double 6.5" or im just impressed by some silly sims?
or im not able to read well...

 

[KaffiMann]

u didnt get the point of start:
it a compromise beetwen a looking fashion and a sound result.
if I need bass i can simpli mount one of my scoop in my bedroom, but is not a good idea now!

Sure, you want decent bass in a relatively compact solution. I get that. Just trying to tell you that making something look like something else takes more work, it ends up costing more and I just think it is better to use the same money, materials and effort to make something properly to begin with.

possible candidate:
Dayton Audio DCS165-4 - 6.5" SubwooferTang Band W6-1139SIF 6-1/2" Paper Cone Subwoofer Speaker

Allright, the W6-1139SIF is good if you have a goal of putting one in each box, personally I would make two boxes and use it together with one SB SB65WBAC25-4 each. But since you want just a mono solution one single box thing it should be enough just putting the W6-1139 in a ca 25 liter bass reflex enclosure. I can do a very decent sim for you if you want.
If you want something that uses a box the width of ca 13", get the Beyma 12BR70 and make a closed box. Cheaper than two W6-1139 and easier to build, more displacement.

 

[bob4]

This one can go down to 30 hz in a smallish box. speaker trade - mivoc AWM 104 10" (25 cm) Tieftonsystem

Do yourself a favor, and build the mid/high part as two conventional boxes, and set them up in a normal stereo triangle.
I love jamaican music, and i love soundsystems. But this fashion of monostacks and sometimes even summing the music to mono in a preamp is just senseless. There is no reason for it nowadays. Amps, processing etc. Is cheap enough. No reason to get rid of the stereo information. Of course there is the sweet spot problem in large spaces, but still, the 3d information is there. Why get rid of it?
Especially for a home environment, i would urge you to do a proper, conventional stereo triangle setup. Otherwise you will not be able to appreciate all the detail and depth and imaging in a lot of the music.

 

[Think]

Room gain is not taken into account. That will give a low end boost up to about 50/60Hz. I presume the bedroom is a (very) small room. The bass will sound 'boomy'.

The tuning in post 11 is nice for outdoors, but for indoors you might want to tune it lower to get a low end roll off that compensates for the room gain. (or seal it )

Maybe it is an idea to use this tuning and 2 ports. Then you can close 1 port to lower the tuning of the ported box when used indoors in a big room or close both and make it sealed.

You might use pvc pipe with screw on end caps, but stuffing a port with a towel also works fine.
If you put 1 port above and 1 below the driver you will get the most cooling/ air circulation.

 

[jahstation]

Sure, you want decent bass in a relatively compact solution. I get that. Just trying to tell you that making something look like something else takes more work, it ends up costing more and I just think it is better to use the same money, materials and effort to make something properly to begin with.

you are right but sometims the goal have a meaning! this time is making more work for having a different result thant the best and simple one... im sure that the final result can surprise you, if im wrong dont worry it will be my fault!

Allright, the W6-1139SIF is good if you have a goal of putting one in each box, personally I would make two boxes and use it together with one SB SB65WBAC25-4 each. But since you want just a mono solution one single box thing it should be enough just putting the W6-1139 in a ca 25 liter bass reflex enclosure. I can do a very decent sim for you if you want.
If you want something that uses a box the width of ca 13", get the Beyma 12BR70 and make a closed box. Cheaper than two W6-1139 and easier to build, more displacement.

as i said building and looking is the main part of the job, anyway 25l is not a easy challeng to get in the space that im imagine... something around 11-15l is more easy...so maybe W6-1139 is not the right one...

I love jamaican music, and i love soundsystems. But this fashion of monostacks and sometimes even summing the music to mono in a preamp is just senseless. There is no reason for it nowadays. Amps, processing etc. Is cheap enough. No reason to get rid of the stereo information. Of course there is the sweet spot problem in large spaces, but still, the 3d information is there. Why get rid of it?

i get your point but this project is a compromise... imagine that the main thing is just the fashion, and trust me this is a lot for many people (not me), so im the person that trying to adjust a "just fashion" project into a good listening experience (now is not!!).
so how do u imagine a jamaican/uk soundsystem stack?
at least 2 scoop and some other things upon, but how to split them? i thinking a lot and we cannot made a 4, 2 per side so the compromise is keeping the things in just one stack. having just one per side is not good again.

Room gain is not taken into account. That will give a low end boost up to about 50/60Hz. I presume the bedroom is a (very) small room. The bass will sound 'boomy'.

idont know much about this subject, if u can suggest to me some proper reading i will apreciate it!



then an offtopic question, how they get big bass from much smaller spakers in those new boom bluetooth boxes like bose o jbl one? passive radiators?

thanks

 

[KaffiMann]

as i said building and looking is the main part of the job, anyway 25l is not a easy challeng to get in the space that im imagine... something around 11-15l is more easy...so maybe W6-1139 is not the right one...

If 11 liters is what you have then these drivers are the best you can get for a sealed enclosure that size. They can take a lot of abuse, but again, they're not magical, so careful on the low end boost.

then an offtopic question, how they get big bass from much smaller spakers in those new boom bluetooth boxes like bose o jbl one? passive radiators?

DSP + Faking it.
It's not really deep bass, just tricking people into thinking it's impressive.
BSC + slight boost 80-180hz or so and nothing under 80hz at all seems to be the general trend. Impressive until you know what deep bass really is, and you get a seemingly impressive performance until you decide to turn the volume up a bit. Those things go out of breath pretty fast.

 

[Baldin]

The way you create bass (or the sensation of Bass) in very small portable speakers, is by using DSP to produce harmonics above the fundamental. The small speaker will only be able to play the harmonics, but there is a psycho-acoustics effect which tricks the barin to think the fundamental is still there. There are many commercial algorithms which does this like MaxxBass® or SuperBass which is a plugin for AD's range of DSPs.

But this is of course nothing like the real thing (just bought myself a EarthQuake DBXi 15D + Slaps15 )

A small 6.5 inch which is actually a really impressive driver (and cheap) is the Reckhorn D165 D-165i Subwoofer Einbaulautsprecher 175 mm, 6.5" Alle Bauteile entsprechen der hochsten Qualitatsstufe ohne Kostenkompromiss. | Reckhorn - natural sound & design

But it all depends on room size, use, loudness preference etc. You can't beat size ...

 

[KaffiMann]

You can't beat size ...

Yep!
Me listening to one of my systems. "There's no replacement for displacement"

 

[jahstation]

this is one of the most impressive audio quality that i ever listen to:

or again i can tell you about hundred of bass cab that smash my chest, but this time is about found what we like in term of fashion and gettin out some likkle more bass...

ok so as I imagine is just loudness over 100hz that make the rest no audible about little boom box.

For my project i will provided by nuff dsp, as testing material for a big company!

so after a decent project that have no whistle or dummy resonance i can works a lot on sound processing!