2-Way DiY Hifi speakers eighteensound

Hi guys,


I was wondering if anyone could help me with a Diy crossover + enclosure
suggestion for a 2-way system, tuned for HiFi home use with:


Eighteensound 12W500 - 12 inch woofer
+
Eighteensound NSD1095N HF compression driver + XT1086 Horn




I'm building something like the Unison Research MAX-1 (not the looks, but
the overall enclosure size etc.):


Unison Hifi, High End - Malibran - Lautsprecher (german site, with review links)

Max 1 - Unison Research - Official Website (official English website)

It seems that (although in one review it says, wrongly, a 12W700 woofer
is used) a 12NLW9300 woofer is used combined
with the XT 1086 Horn. I guess the HF also is probably something like a
NSD1095N because it is the top model 1 inch driver from Eighteensound,
next to the ND1090 (to be fitted with 1 inch XT1086 Horn).


I also found some examples at the following websites:


http://www.eighteensound.it/Portals/0/EnclosuresKits/18sound_12%202ways.pdf Don't think this is
particularly tuned for hifi purpose.

A Finland website:
Kaiutinrakennusohje - Nitrosäiliö - 15-tuumainen hifi-PA-kaiutin | AudioVideo.fi


Same website, different pages translated with google (for what it is worth):

15 inch plan:
https://translate.google.nl/transla...ailio-15-tuumainen-hifi-pa-kaiutin&edit-text=


15 inch plan with crossover renewed:
https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Faudiovideo.fi%2Fopas%2Fnitrosailio-kaiutinrakennusohjeen-jakosuodinpaivitys-ja-ulkoasumuutos-mikkelin-amk-muotoilun&edit-text=

12 Inch plan:
https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=fi&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Faudiovideo.fi%2Fopas%2Fkaiutinrakennusohje-dynamiitti-12-tuumainen-hifi-pa-kaiutin&edit-text=


Also interesting PA Diy kits at DiYsoundgroup:
Maximus-12 DIY Sound Group

And high priced PA pair Yamamoto YS-500:
6moons audio reviews: Yamamoto SoundCraft YS-500

Basically i'm trying to see if anyone already build some reasonable 2-way
system with a 12 inch combi with the NSD1095N. It seems to be used now
and then in hifi surroundings.

I already ordered the HF driver but the woofer i could still change, but
i plan to keep it with eighteensound.

Links to other threads with 2-way PA hifi speakers etc. are welcome!

Thanks!
 
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18Sound engineers designed the XT1086 horn for the NSD1090 and NSD1095N.
NOTE: From the datasheets, the NSD1095N "really" requires the higher(1600Hz) LR2/LR4 Xover more then the NSD1090.
-----(this is why you do not want to copy the 18Sound 12" 2-way design which uses the NSD1090)

18Sound engineers designed the XT1086 horn for the TiN coated NSD1095N.
--XT1086 and NSD1095N have a matching exit angle of 27 degrees.
--XT1086 and NSD1095N spec a 1,600Hz LR2/LR4 crossover.
----The XT1086 documentation polar plots provide strong data for using a LR2/LR4 1600Hz crossover.

The 18Sound SPL data shows the 12W40 does not have the correct 80-degree polar response at 1600Hz.
--The 12SW40 is designed as a woofer and not optimized for midbass performance.

The 18Sound 12NMB420 has a low inductance NdFeB motor and light cone and has good 1600Hz polar performance
**STUDY THE 18Sound 12NMB420 midbass as a possible purchase.
-----The Faital Pro data shows the 12FH520 is also a good midbass partner for the NSD1095N.

The XT1086 is 126mm deep, and the 12NMB420 is ~90mm deep at the pole, 126mm total depth.
--Probably ~10-15mm difference between the XT1086 + NSD1095N phase plug depth. The crossover needs to "fix" this time delay.

18Sound recommends a LR2 crossover frequency of 1,600Hz for the NSD1095N 1" compression driver. This favors 10" midbass with the XT1086 horn, but a FEW 12" midbass like the 12NMB420 approach an 80_degree polar directivity pattern at 1600Hz BUT probably also require steeper LR4/LR4 slopes.
----An LR4/LR4 crossover at 1600Hz can help smooth-in a 12" midbass 80_degree polar to match the XT1086 horn.
----There is a LR4/LR4 crossover spreadsheet which calculates how to cover a modest T-M time delay offset using a modest frequency shift on the tweeter.

Computer Model the NSD1095N on the XT1086 horn with an LR4/LR4 crossover at 1600Hz to the 12NMB420.
Google and Download "DRIVER OFFSET CROSSOVER SPREADSHEET"
---enter midrange LR4 1600Hz. enter tweeter LR4 (starting at) 1600Hz and make small frequency changes to reduce ripple.

You really, really want to build a real 3-way system by adding a real woofer below the sealed 12NMB420 midbass.

GOOD Home audio speaker design is different from the PA-speaker kits.
 
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A sealed midrange alignment has superior sound quality over a ported midrange alignment....BUT very limited low bass extension below 100-200Hz.

The 1600Hz Xover demand for the NSD1095N on XT1086 requires a midbass with T/S parameters which cannot ALSO produce bass below 100-200Hz.

You need a 3-way design with real woofers crossed in around the 200-200Hz baffle step frequency.
---

Pictures:
-SPL for NSD1095N on XT1086 illustrating why 1600Hz Xover is recommended by 18Sound
-example for 3-way XT1086 + 10" midbass + two 18" front woofers to match high SPL/watt
-example for 3-way XT1086 + 12" midbass + two 18" side woofers.
-----Few 12" have 80polar @1600Hz. 18Sound 12MB420 midass looks good.
 

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Thanks both for sharing your views.

I already thought about the lack of sub bass, say below 100hz...

I thought i'd put a subwoofer with plate amp to complete bass response.
But i do not have experience in a seperate subwoofer placed in the room. At least not a high end sub system. I'm thinking of using the Hypex DS 2.0.

Using the subwoofers inside the frontspeaker would take up to much space in my living room i think. But maybe a compact design should be able to fit in a reasonable dimension tower. That is also why i prefer to use a plate amp for the subwoofer. So it
is adjustable. I play them with tube amps that do not have any bass/treble adjustments.

* But how about the desigs as stated in my starting post, the ones like the Unison Research MAX 1. Isn't possible to build it like that in a bigger tower with basreflex in the front, to get the low frequencies?

* And if i would choose to add a subwoofer, build in or seperate. Is it a good idea (i thought) to maybe undo the LF driver from all the freq below say 100Hz so it doesn't have to process that sound and therefor have smoother overaal sound in the 100-1600hz range?

* Which system is it that you show in the picture Linesource? The one with the 2 side mounted 18 inch woofers? Do you have a link? Is it a reflex cab or sealed?
 
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* But how about the designs as stated in my starting post, the ones like the Unison Research MAX 1.

Unison manufactures tube amps. The Unison Research "MAX 1" speaker designer accepted several SEVERE COMPROMISES in order to produce a 2-way 12" + horn high efficiency design with a tube friendly impedance load from a simple textbook 12db passive crossover. Probably not a design folks here would build or buy.

Unison Research "MAX 1" uses the 18Sound ND1090 on XT1086, 12db crossed at 2000Hz to 18Sound 12NLW9300
--2Khz 12db Xover is STUPID high for a 12" midbass. You will not find a 12" design from JBL or Altec or Geddes with 2Khz 12db Xover.
-----The 18Sound 12NLW9300 SPL drops very rapidly at 2Khz, and the designer uses this ragged fast-falling SPL curve for compromised attenuation.
-----12" midbass to 1" SEOS12 Econowave designs typically use 1300-1400Hz LR4 crossovers for a smooth directivity transistion.
--Simulations suggest that a ~37Hz ported bass shelf alignment is used, resulting in audible Doppler distortion from 2KHz riding on 40Hz. Another compromise.
-----The speaker must be placed against walls to supplement the bass shelf droop which starts at 200Hz. Another compromise.
===
Unison Research "MAX 1" Webpage
System:Floor standing - front firing Reflex
Loudspeakers:1 woofer 12"
1 copression driver with titanium diaphragm 1"
Number of way:2 way
Frequency Responce:30-20000 Hz
Cross-over:Woofer: Low Pass 12 dB
Tweeter: hogh pass 12 dB
Crossover Frequency 2000 Hz
Power: 500 watt RMS
Amplifier:from 10 a 200 Watt RMS or more without clipping
Sensibility:94 dB/2.83Vrms/1 meter
Nominal Impedence:8 ohm
Room positioning: Close reflex ducts for near-wall positioning
Dimension :cm 95h x 35w x 45d
Weigth: 37 Kg

=========
 

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* Which system is it that you show in the picture Linesource? The one with the 2 side mounted 18 inch woofers? Do you have a link? Is it a reflex cab or sealed?

My sketch of a high efficiency, narrow box 3-way is similar to the Tweek Geek BMF-1 design(which uses 12" side woofers) that you can study at:
BMF-1 - 98dB, 4x12 powered subs, 12 in Midbass, AMT HF driver - Tweek Geek

==== Sd vs. cone diameter===
18" 1220 cm2
15" 855 cm2
12" 530 cm2
10" 345 cm2
8" 225 cm2

The large cone area of an 18" woofer provides high efficiency bass with modest distortion generating displacement. Side-to-Side physically connected woofer pairs use counter-forces to dramatically reduce vibrations. Two 18" woofers can provide high quality room-equalized bass from a sealed box alignment with modest watts. The attached table illustrates how the sealed cabinet volume can be changed if higher amplifier power is acceptable. Two 18" side-side woofers can produce 100db SPL 30Hz bass with just 10 watts of power in a sealed 9cuft cabinet, OR 100db SPL 30Hz bass with just 20 watts of power in a more modest sealed 6cuft cabinet.

The 18Sound ND1090N and 18Sound 12MB420 are designed for high efficiency and dynamics, which requires two 18" woofers to keep up!

Sealed box volume vs. amplifier boost power using a Linkwitz Transform of 20Hz for a pair of Faital 18FH500:
Two Faital 18FH500 woofers producing 100db SPL with -3db at 20Hz Linkwitz Transform
Sealed Box Volume = 9cuft____Qtc=0.70___Power for 100db SPL @30Hz = 10.4watts
Sealed Box Volume = 8cuft____Qtc=0.73___Power for 100db SPL @30Hz = 12.5watts
Sealed Box Volume = 7cuft____Qtc=0.76___Power for 100db SPL @30Hz = 15.5watts
Sealed Box Volume = 6cuft____Qtc=0.80___Power for 100db SPL @30Hz = 20.18watts
 

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I really like the technical aspects of a 3-way system. Already thought about it, but now with this new info i think i'm gonna build one for sure.
Because i really want the speaker to go low. Not basreflex boomy, but adequate.

* I looked into the bass drivers in 15 inch, but there are not ones which go lower than lets say 40 HZ. In a sealed enclosure i therefore should go with a 18 inch, am i right?

I will definitely stick with a plate amp because of the adjustments. For now, and a couple
years to come, i'm bound to a small room. Big chance there otherwise will be bass problems which i cannot adjust with only a passive crossover in the low.
(not planning on keeping busy tuning a passive crossover...)
The plate amp i choose is a Hypex DS 2.0 (maybe a DS 4.0)

Hypex Electronics BV - DS2.0

Because of the design of the towerspeaker, which will have bended sides, i cannot place 2 18 inchers per channel i think. What do you think if only one 18 inch unit per side is used? I'd guess it will funcion also?

Is the plateamp gonna be good enough, up to 120hz. Can de 12 inch mid (which i still prefer better dan usig 8 inch) go low from 120hz and up, in sealed enclosure?
(seperate chamber in the enclosure, something like the BMF-1)


So thanks again Linesource for your thorough look into this new speakerplan. Hope that you can help me with these above followup questions. I like the tip you gave about the BMF-1 because this is something i would like to build.
However, a cabinet in BMF dimensions is way to big for my livingroom.

Btw: The drivers i'm planing to buy for the 3-way bass is also probably gonna be Eighteensound. This brand is commonly available where i live, good prices also.
The 18 inch candidate:

0004 18LW1400 - LF Transducers - Ferrite 18LW1400 : Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers
 
WinISD SPL plots for sealed 12NMB420 F3~140Hz and 12NLW9300 F3 ~120Hz easy crossover to most woofers. Note higher SPL/watt with 12NMB420.

For their BMF-1 speaker, Tweek Geeks published several construction photos. Run an extensive Google search.
The BMF‐1 stands 43”high x 16”wide x 20”deep, and this depth is needed for ~4cuft of volume for the two 12" woofers.
https://www.pinterest.com/localhifishop/tweek-geeks-bmf-speaker-in-the-making/

1) Review info on Linkwitz Transform bass extension technology and circuits/filters. Also DSP equalization like from MiniDSP.
2) Using sealed woofers is becoming popular because they have excellent transient response, and they simplify modern DSP room equalization. Several plate amps include a Linkwitz bass transform circuit, or a few equalization controls.
3) With bass equalization circuits from DSP or Linkwitz Transform circuits, you can get deep bass with 12" woofers or larger 18" woofers. The BMF-1 uses two 12" woofers with equalization and 400 watt amplifiers. Using 18" woofers will need significantly lower power, at the cost of a 22" deep cabinet. Since most speakers are placed about 2 feet away from the rear wall to controll short delay wall reflections, deeper cabinets are mainly an esthetic issue. My design sketch is 18"wide x 46"high x 22"deep which produces ~6cuft of woofer volume. The center for the XT1086 is 39" above ground, an ideal ear level, and ideal height to keep enough wood above the XT1086 for smoothing the 1600Hz = 8.5" wavelength baffle reflection.
4) The 18LW1400 models well for equalized deep bass, but requires more power than the Faital 18FH500. The 18LW1400 looks like a very good woofer choice with a solid state amp. The 18LW1400 is 8.5" deep, so two side-side woofers require a 19" wide cabinet for a perfect fit.
 

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If you want to stick with a 2-way and that 18Sound 12W500, have you looked at this:

Kaiutinrakennusohje - Dynamiitti - 12-tuumainen hifi-PA-kaiutin | AudioVideo.fi

It's from the same source as that Nitrosäiliö design you mentioned. I heard this one at the office when it wasn't yet quite finished, and remember enjoying it quite much. We blasted the bugger so hard with a pair of 700W monoblocks that it started farting damping wool out of it's reflex ports. They took it quite well. And they're not just for blasting Infected Mushroom at earsplitting levels.

Yeah, you'll get more bottom end with a 3-way with an 18" bass driver. If that's really necessary.

PA drivers can get quite addicting once you find the good ones. And after you've acclimated yourself to those, most of the usual crop made with a 6.5" "bass" and a dome tweeter start sounding very, very uninteresting.
 
Had a look at the pictures and found them, about that BMF-1. Interesting.

So i also looked into the LT and it's a relief. This solves the problem for all the possible low freq problems. Found some good links, also the one from project 71. Only thing left is the dimensions and the drivers size to fit into the design.


As mentioned, i have to deal with a small living room and therefore cannot place a design that lingers towards +/- 18"x46"x22"
I'm figuring out how to deal with this.
It's not perse a question of aesthetics, as the speakers are already going to be huge -As in far more present than average hifi towers-. But it's a practical cause.
I still like to be able to move around the room :) ...next to the kids toys etc.

Looked at Hypex modules. This time the AS2.100 & PSC2.400
Sorry no links, the Hypex.nl site is offline at the moment.
There both DSP adjustable and possible to drive as a plate amp for active subwoofer.

Meanwhile keeping the list of cone surface in mind (Linesource)....

==== Sd vs. cone diameter===
18" 1220 cm2
15" 855 cm2
12" 530 cm2
10" 345 cm2
8" 225 cm2

--> You talked about your design sketch. Would you mind sharing something more?
Curious of-course.
 
If you want to stick with a 2-way and that 18Sound 12W500, have you looked at this:

Kaiutinrakennusohje - Dynamiitti - 12-tuumainen hifi-PA-kaiutin | AudioVideo.fi

It's from the same source as that Nitrosäiliö design you mentioned. I heard this one at the office when it wasn't yet quite finished, and remember enjoying it quite much. We blasted the bugger so hard with a pair of 700W monoblocks that it started farting damping wool out of it's reflex ports. They took it quite well. And they're not just for blasting Infected Mushroom at earsplitting levels.

Yeah, you'll get more bottom end with a 3-way with an 18" bass driver. If that's really necessary.

PA drivers can get quite addicting once you find the good ones. And after you've acclimated yourself to those, most of the usual crop made with a 6.5" "bass" and a dome tweeter start sounding very, very uninteresting.

Yes, i found that other build you mentioned also. But i didn't plan on building that one because it is tuned with those big ports. That brings a lot of undefined bass, with difficult placement.

But i bet you enjoyed them! I can't wait to listen to my upcoming build.

I also guess that it is an addictive sound, which is produced by PA drivers (the good stuff of course). I know it worked this way for me. Kinda like a lot of people who get into building open baffle speakers, and love the unboxed sound. Which also use a lot of PA stuff.
 

Thanks for the link. Didn't notice this before on that picture.

Than it probably has to be one of the following:

HD1000 8 1” exit HF Driver - 1.75” vc - 100W program power - 107dB@1W/1mt - Titanium dome - EWAL -
100mm OD compact design € 112,00 0421081000

HD1050 8 1” exit HF Driver - 1.75” vc - 100W program power - 107dB@1W/1mt - Titanium dome - EWAL € 112,00 0421081050

HD1040 8/16 1” exit HF Driver - 1.75” vc - 80W program power - 107dB@1W/1mt - PEN diaphragm - EWAL € 112,00 0421081040

HD1030 8 1” exit HFDriver - 1.3” vc - 60W program power - 106dB@1W/1mt - Titanium diaphragm - EWAL € 78,00 0421M8H810
 
I own some XT1086 horns as well but I will use them with Faital HF10AK drivers because I assume that I can cross them lower than the 18S 1" drivers. I intend to go for 1200 Hz but can't tell you how well it will work (but my woofers are not 12" - they are copies of an obsolete TAD 10" alnico woofer) .
You may have to wait two weeks approximately unitl I have measurements. But being able to cross that low would offer some more choice of 12" drivers for you as well I assume.


Regards

Charles
 

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