I've spent the last 2 days researching here the common issues with these amps. The good news is that one of them barely works(AMP1) and they are in both relatively good physical condition(outside).
The one that does work will need the input board completely cleaned of the well known cap leakage problem(both will need this). All values of resistors checked, OP97 checked - removed and cleaned also and Electrolytic caps replaced are among the first things to do. I will follow the advise to remove the trim pot, op97 and electrolytics before deciding on a cleaning method. I may try multiple simple green cleanings as I have no ultrasonic cleaner. No hum in this one. That is what I think would be a good start for that amp. If I'm reading correctly. Output voltage at the speaker terminals settles at .135v from about 3 volts in about a minute(too high).
AMP2, which is apart on my bench is acting a little different. A lot different actually. I plugged this one in with a 8ohm speaker connected, as soon as the relay kicked in, the 4.7 ohm 20 watt resistor opened and the main 15 amp fuse in the back opened. Not good. Believe it or not but the speaker is ok?? Some initial information I read indicated that there may be a problem with the big filtering caps, 2 @ 36Kuf 100v and/or the 35amp bridge rectifier. My Fluke 11 meter does not go that high but, they were not open or shorted. ESR tested very low.To check them, which I don't know whether or not is a reliable test was to remove the + and - output transistor rail wires and see if the caps charge. They did, the relay kicked in normally and my temporary 5 amp fuse in place of the 15amp did not open and temporary replacement 5.1ohm 10watt was ok and not warm. Measured 81.4 volts at the caps which I think might be ok. I've begun a simple diode in circuit testing of all 20 of the output transistors for shorts or opens. I cannot seem to find any problems when doing simple diode checks. They all seem to read like typical transistors or diodes.
My main question for today is this, is it possible(I'm hoping) that something on the input board is causing this - Blowing the 15amp fuse and 4.7ohm resistor failure? While the output transistors, rectifier and main filtering caps being ok? Or, should I be looking elsewhere?
Oh, if anyone has a schematic or service manual for this unit it would be of great help to me. So far, I'm just finding bits and pieces of information here and there.
Thank you!
Ardvaark
The one that does work will need the input board completely cleaned of the well known cap leakage problem(both will need this). All values of resistors checked, OP97 checked - removed and cleaned also and Electrolytic caps replaced are among the first things to do. I will follow the advise to remove the trim pot, op97 and electrolytics before deciding on a cleaning method. I may try multiple simple green cleanings as I have no ultrasonic cleaner. No hum in this one. That is what I think would be a good start for that amp. If I'm reading correctly. Output voltage at the speaker terminals settles at .135v from about 3 volts in about a minute(too high).
AMP2, which is apart on my bench is acting a little different. A lot different actually. I plugged this one in with a 8ohm speaker connected, as soon as the relay kicked in, the 4.7 ohm 20 watt resistor opened and the main 15 amp fuse in the back opened. Not good. Believe it or not but the speaker is ok?? Some initial information I read indicated that there may be a problem with the big filtering caps, 2 @ 36Kuf 100v and/or the 35amp bridge rectifier. My Fluke 11 meter does not go that high but, they were not open or shorted. ESR tested very low.To check them, which I don't know whether or not is a reliable test was to remove the + and - output transistor rail wires and see if the caps charge. They did, the relay kicked in normally and my temporary 5 amp fuse in place of the 15amp did not open and temporary replacement 5.1ohm 10watt was ok and not warm. Measured 81.4 volts at the caps which I think might be ok. I've begun a simple diode in circuit testing of all 20 of the output transistors for shorts or opens. I cannot seem to find any problems when doing simple diode checks. They all seem to read like typical transistors or diodes.
My main question for today is this, is it possible(I'm hoping) that something on the input board is causing this - Blowing the 15amp fuse and 4.7ohm resistor failure? While the output transistors, rectifier and main filtering caps being ok? Or, should I be looking elsewhere?
Oh, if anyone has a schematic or service manual for this unit it would be of great help to me. So far, I'm just finding bits and pieces of information here and there.
Thank you!
Ardvaark
Hi Ardvaark,
I am very afraid that you really do not know enough to safely and properly service these yourself. Your post detailing what happened tells me that much - loud and clear.
The main filter capacitors are seldom ever a problem, people just like to replace them because it's a popular thing to do. Measuring them with a "cap checker" function is next to useless as well.
The fact that you have 0.135 VDC offset means the board is not cleaned properly. Until that is gone, the board is not usable - and should not be run.
The other amp, you have proved that there is a fault in the amplifier for sure. At this point, it could be full DC offset, or partial. You do not have enough information to go on yet. I sure hope you didn't pull any of the outputs off the heat sink!
I am not trying to be insulting at all, but you should take these amps to someone who knows what they are doing, who has the proper equipment. I do not believe you have the learned skills to repair amplifiers. It's not an insult, you just simply do not know what to do. You haven't taken electronics from what I gather, or worked in the field.
-Chris
I am very afraid that you really do not know enough to safely and properly service these yourself. Your post detailing what happened tells me that much - loud and clear.
The main filter capacitors are seldom ever a problem, people just like to replace them because it's a popular thing to do. Measuring them with a "cap checker" function is next to useless as well.
The fact that you have 0.135 VDC offset means the board is not cleaned properly. Until that is gone, the board is not usable - and should not be run.
The other amp, you have proved that there is a fault in the amplifier for sure. At this point, it could be full DC offset, or partial. You do not have enough information to go on yet. I sure hope you didn't pull any of the outputs off the heat sink!
I am not trying to be insulting at all, but you should take these amps to someone who knows what they are doing, who has the proper equipment. I do not believe you have the learned skills to repair amplifiers. It's not an insult, you just simply do not know what to do. You haven't taken electronics from what I gather, or worked in the field.
-Chris
here's a repair place, anybody chime in that can recommend this business??? They fix there known issues for 190 plus shipping.
http://www.ebcelectronics.com/Adcom-GFA-565-Repair-Service.html
http://www.ebcelectronics.com/Adcom-GFA-565-Repair-Service.html
Adcom 565's
Thank you anatech for posting first. No insult taken. I understand your concern. Can you be a little more helpful then pointing out my obvious lack of skills? I had a very specific question. These amps are mine to do with as I please. I also need your help and I do not have disposable income for qualified in store help. Don't worry, I won't hold you or anyone else responsible for any damages I may incur to myself. Can you try the question I have?
Thank you,
Ardvaark
Thank you anatech for posting first. No insult taken. I understand your concern. Can you be a little more helpful then pointing out my obvious lack of skills? I had a very specific question. These amps are mine to do with as I please. I also need your help and I do not have disposable income for qualified in store help. Don't worry, I won't hold you or anyone else responsible for any damages I may incur to myself. Can you try the question I have?
Thank you,
Ardvaark
Ardvaark unless you have experience repairing very high power amps, this is a job best left for others that do have it. If you go ahead and try and you don't succeed, then it'll be more work and cost for others to make it right. IMO this is not a good place to start to learn and is unlikely others will help you as it its a little too much to explain troubleshooting and R/R every step by step.
see website above... they state DIY repairs are not covered for flat rate.
see website above... they state DIY repairs are not covered for flat rate.
Ok...
I'll look elsewhere then for the help I need. Sorry you could not help.
Thank you!
Ardvaark
🙂
I'll look elsewhere then for the help I need. Sorry you could not help.
Thank you!
Ardvaark
🙂
That was easy...
Nailed it! After washing the input board in alcohol and replacing the bad leaky caps and an 82 ohm fusible resistor my dc offset is firm at 0mv for an hour now. Input shorted, 8 ohm speaker connected. However, after an hour its getting a little warm. Going to check the bias and I think we'll be good! Thanks again for your indirect help anatech! And all the others!!
Ardvaark
Nailed it! After washing the input board in alcohol and replacing the bad leaky caps and an 82 ohm fusible resistor my dc offset is firm at 0mv for an hour now. Input shorted, 8 ohm speaker connected. However, after an hour its getting a little warm. Going to check the bias and I think we'll be good! Thanks again for your indirect help anatech! And all the others!!
Ardvaark
Simple Green scares me. Personally, I think its conductive in some way. So many people with the 565 input board problem continue having problems even after multiple cleanings with the ultrasonic machine and Simple Green.
Me, I scrubbed mine with a soft toothbrush front and back with 90% isopropanol alcohol while it was soaking in it. Followed closely with a 5 minute rinse in hot tap water then a light rinsing with distilled water. This procedure yielded me 0mv dc offset for over an hour and a half. I think it will be fine now.
Ardvaark
Me, I scrubbed mine with a soft toothbrush front and back with 90% isopropanol alcohol while it was soaking in it. Followed closely with a 5 minute rinse in hot tap water then a light rinsing with distilled water. This procedure yielded me 0mv dc offset for over an hour and a half. I think it will be fine now.
Ardvaark
Hi Ardvaark,
Okay, but first one thing. Simple green is not conductive, it is designed to dissolve greasy deposits and works very well on most other things. I use it because it is generally pretty safe with components. Alcohol, on the other hand, is not. It tends to wick up into components in a similar manner that WD-40 may. It is capable of getting into transistors over time. It may or may not get into PCB materials depending on the chemistry, which might be why it worked well for you in this case. So you see, even this action you took may possibly bite you later on at some point. Let's hope not.
You said a few things that tipped me off that you really didn't understand what you were getting into. Let's look at some of these.
Even some people who charge for their services as "technicians" can not be trusted some times. It does not matter their age, although people over 30 are better bets on average. to give you an example of this, I just completed a Carver M-1.0t, sold as working. Well, it really wasn't and all most failed in an expensive way. It seems that someone attempted to repair a blown channel. They installed the wrong parts for a "well known modification", using 60 V parts where the specified device was a 150 V part!!! They even managed to get a fake 2SB1163 that was clearly not original and use it for an output transistor (instead of a commutator). Well, the amp has 100 VDC rails for one, and it had not yet been run hard. For toppers, the bias current was zero on both channels and uncontrollable. Their solder connections were terrible, I had to dismount all the power devices on both channels. Clean and test (replacing the fake and completing the complimentary pair), then re-bend all the leads and trim to the correct length so they would fit properly. There were a ton of poor solder connections on the PCB I had to redo as well. They left large blobs and flux all over the place. What a mess. My customer is getting a lot of free labour from me, I can't charge for all the clean up time (I wish I could!).
Every comment you made had me thinking that there was a real possibility that you would either really hurt yourself, or cause additional damage to the amplifier.
I'm not trying to be too critical really. What I do see is a complete lack of respect for what a good technician has to know in order to do this job.
-Chris
Okay, but first one thing. Simple green is not conductive, it is designed to dissolve greasy deposits and works very well on most other things. I use it because it is generally pretty safe with components. Alcohol, on the other hand, is not. It tends to wick up into components in a similar manner that WD-40 may. It is capable of getting into transistors over time. It may or may not get into PCB materials depending on the chemistry, which might be why it worked well for you in this case. So you see, even this action you took may possibly bite you later on at some point. Let's hope not.
You said a few things that tipped me off that you really didn't understand what you were getting into. Let's look at some of these.
The original op amps are not marked "OP97", and replacing all the capacitors may have some hidden perils depending on exactly what you put back in. Generally, good technicians know what brands are safe and well constructed. Most other people start turning over the least expensive parts they can find, or they go to the most expensive ones. They may even go as far as mounting parts that are too large and do not fit properly. This is actually a very real reliability problem. Never mind the amount of PC board damage I see over time.
Even some people who charge for their services as "technicians" can not be trusted some times. It does not matter their age, although people over 30 are better bets on average. to give you an example of this, I just completed a Carver M-1.0t, sold as working. Well, it really wasn't and all most failed in an expensive way. It seems that someone attempted to repair a blown channel. They installed the wrong parts for a "well known modification", using 60 V parts where the specified device was a 150 V part!!! They even managed to get a fake 2SB1163 that was clearly not original and use it for an output transistor (instead of a commutator). Well, the amp has 100 VDC rails for one, and it had not yet been run hard. For toppers, the bias current was zero on both channels and uncontrollable. Their solder connections were terrible, I had to dismount all the power devices on both channels. Clean and test (replacing the fake and completing the complimentary pair), then re-bend all the leads and trim to the correct length so they would fit properly. There were a ton of poor solder connections on the PCB I had to redo as well. They left large blobs and flux all over the place. What a mess. My customer is getting a lot of free labour from me, I can't charge for all the clean up time (I wish I could!).
A question that shouldn't need asking really, it's obvious the answer is affirmative. That reading clearing indicates a fault.
Wow! That should never be done - ever! It is very likely that there will be a high voltage present across the speaker terminals with these amps. Any amplifier really, but the failure mode with these really increases the risk.
Again, an irresponsible way to inspect any amplifier. This is something that is very well known in the service world, and you didn't ask before trying anything out. That's the thing, you didn't even ask, you just went ahead and did it anyway.
Not normally, and we don't even know what you are basing that comment on. There is more than enough incorrect info out there to read - from people who shouldn't be suggesting anything to anybody! Besides, there is a wealth of information that forms a basis of knowledge that you do not have. It's the same with any profession. I don't know what you did for a living, but without training, I wouldn't simply start doing what you did. I have more respect for the details I don't know. They are many and important in electronics.
Do you know what the tolerances on large electrolytic caps are? Have you any idea how to really test the condition of larger electrolytic caps? How on earth did you test ESR? The Fluke doesn't do that either. Very good meters though.
If they were shorted, what would this test tell you? How did you disconnect the output stages? What if a rectifier were shorted and a capacitor exploded in your face? There was a real possibility that you could have lost your ability to see - forever. This act was really pretty dangerous, and you didn't even know that. 🙁
You need to know more before you could interpret these tests. Do you know how your Fluke meter performs the diode test? I do, but do you - without looking it up now.
You are asking where you should start looking. Why would looking at the input board be better than somewhere else? The electrolyte is a pretty serious problem, and it may affect other components (parts) as well. In fact, a problem here may have caused some output transistors to be damaged in addition to anything wrong there.
You started without the service information???
Every comment you made had me thinking that there was a real possibility that you would either really hurt yourself, or cause additional damage to the amplifier.
Wrong attitude completely, but legally true. The problem is that after a possible failure (or worse, and assumed success), these amplifiers could be sold to another person. When I see this attitude, I generally walk away from that person. You are trying to justify your actions without regard for what has been said so far.
This is the worst reason to do what you are trying to do. The ability and training you have is the only good reason for you to attempt servicing something. No other reason makes any sense what-so-ever! Why is it that "I can't afford to have 'x' serviced properly" the one most often seen reason to attempt something anyone may be ill equipped and ill trained to do? I really do not understand how a rational person could possibly get to this point, can you? Honestly now. Let's say you are an auto technician. You get a person asking similar things of you, what will your response be? Then, they come back with a damaged car wanting an inexpensive repair after extra damage has occurred, will you even accept that job? I've learned not to without an acceptance from the customer to pay for additional work as it may be necessary to fix what they have done.
I'm not trying to be too critical really. What I do see is a complete lack of respect for what a good technician has to know in order to do this job.
-Chris
Hi the apostate,
They can't.
Do you know why no real service shop can compete with fast turn around and a good job? Well, good technicians are very busy technicians. Their lead time just to look at something can often reach a month or more. Unless they are not busy that is.
Always remember one thing. On average, good work and fast turnaround are mutually exclusive. Sometimes it can be done, but not consistently and certainly not advertised as a service. In fact, these guys even attack other shops by asking you to remove your amp and send it to them. To me, that is underhanded to an extreme.
Their advertised service appears too good to be true, and it really is. I would avoid them like the plague. I didn't see where they are authorized warranty for anything. That should scream at you. I also see a number of units for sale, and they are parting out units!!! These would be units "not worth repair" that the customer probably gave them. Add up the parts for the Denon unit there. Holy ****! (my stars) They are making a ton of money from customers I doubt they paid anything to. How about all those Adcom amps? I will tell you that good shops do not end up with many things left lying around. So ..... how did they get these, one wonders? I'm not wondering, because I have seen things like this before.
The clues are there, you just have to see them.
-Chris
Yup, and a week guaranteed turnaround on top of that. How can any shop compete with this?
They can't.
Do you know why no real service shop can compete with fast turn around and a good job? Well, good technicians are very busy technicians. Their lead time just to look at something can often reach a month or more. Unless they are not busy that is.
Always remember one thing. On average, good work and fast turnaround are mutually exclusive. Sometimes it can be done, but not consistently and certainly not advertised as a service. In fact, these guys even attack other shops by asking you to remove your amp and send it to them. To me, that is underhanded to an extreme.
Their advertised service appears too good to be true, and it really is. I would avoid them like the plague. I didn't see where they are authorized warranty for anything. That should scream at you. I also see a number of units for sale, and they are parting out units!!! These would be units "not worth repair" that the customer probably gave them. Add up the parts for the Denon unit there. Holy ****! (my stars) They are making a ton of money from customers I doubt they paid anything to. How about all those Adcom amps? I will tell you that good shops do not end up with many things left lying around. So ..... how did they get these, one wonders? I'm not wondering, because I have seen things like this before.
The clues are there, you just have to see them.
-Chris
Hi Ardvaark,
Firstly, never edit a copied post please. The idea is that it is a true, unaltered copy of a previous statement or question. Now, the copy can not be relied on to be an accurate copy of anything I posted. In fact, I find it confusing and it's my copied post!
Look, I was not questioning the conductivity at all. Your reply is not based on anything I have said. I agree with you, alcohol is not conductive, but then again, pure water isn't either, nor will pure water leave calcium deposits. So, what's your point? 🙄
You are not supposed to leave any cleaner on the board, not even alcohol! It's important that the board be washed no matter what you use to clean it with. Looks like you need to study procedures my friend. You probably have deposits all over the place there if you didn't do a thorough rinse.
Sockets for op amps should not be used in audio equipment. Heck, they only have 8 pins to desolder, no great pain there. Now, since you have decided that you possess greater knowledge than people who work in the field, why not take a guess as to why sockets for op amps may cause problems.
BTW, Elna is a very good make of capacitor normally. Do some more research. It's also not uncommon for the brands of small parts to change throughout the production cycle of any electronic device or PCB.
As you read the various posts I've made over the years, you will see that I do help as much as I can. However, I only help people who can understand what is going on. It was, and still is abundantly clear to me that you have no business working on things like that amplifier. It's not important that you dislike what I have said, because I'm only pointing out what I can "see". In no way am I trying to insult you either. For instance, I am no good what so-ever at accounting, cooking, flying an areoplane and many other things. I am very good with electronics and consumer equipment.
You are right about exactly one thing in the above statement. This is indeed DIYAudio. That's it, the rest is based on your own poor conclusions and assumptions. This is indeed a site where we do help people out. However, a person who does not possess the skills and proper knowledge can not be helped out. That's you, in case you are wondering. The social responsibility for those who know more is to impart their knowledge to those who are in a position to accept and understand the information. I really do not know what your skills are, but having trained many technicians in my life, and firing almost as many because they were not good enough, I do have enough experience to correctly assess what you do not know, based on your comments and questions. Most of the people I was forced to let go either did not have enough self-pride and care to do a reasonable job, or they simply could not grasp the concepts fully.
Now, as for being helpful. I was directing you in a helpful manner. You confused "being helpful" with allowing you to perform some dangerous procedures without the proper knowledge and equipment. Just because you want to do something does not mean that no one should advise you that you are not in a position to do the job properly. Read my tag line.
-Chris
Firstly, never edit a copied post please. The idea is that it is a true, unaltered copy of a previous statement or question. Now, the copy can not be relied on to be an accurate copy of anything I posted. In fact, I find it confusing and it's my copied post!
Look, I was not questioning the conductivity at all. Your reply is not based on anything I have said. I agree with you, alcohol is not conductive, but then again, pure water isn't either, nor will pure water leave calcium deposits. So, what's your point? 🙄
You are not supposed to leave any cleaner on the board, not even alcohol! It's important that the board be washed no matter what you use to clean it with. Looks like you need to study procedures my friend. You probably have deposits all over the place there if you didn't do a thorough rinse.
Okay, no problem.
Since you didn't mention your amps had been worked on before, I had to assume they were in factory original condition. Either that or I missed where you indicated that the original devices had been changed. I do know that many of the posting public have been guessing as to what these devices really are I guess those amps were worked on by someone with about the same level of skill you are demonstrating now.
Sockets for op amps should not be used in audio equipment. Heck, they only have 8 pins to desolder, no great pain there. Now, since you have decided that you possess greater knowledge than people who work in the field, why not take a guess as to why sockets for op amps may cause problems.
BTW, Elna is a very good make of capacitor normally. Do some more research. It's also not uncommon for the brands of small parts to change throughout the production cycle of any electronic device or PCB.
I don't, but the number of people who really do know what they are doing is a much smaller number than what you may expect. Another point should be made. I did not call anyone an "idiot". I did correctly point out that there are many people out there who are attempting to do work that is beyond their ability and understanding. Of course, if you wish to label yourself as an idiot, far be it for me to stand in your way.
As you read the various posts I've made over the years, you will see that I do help as much as I can. However, I only help people who can understand what is going on. It was, and still is abundantly clear to me that you have no business working on things like that amplifier. It's not important that you dislike what I have said, because I'm only pointing out what I can "see". In no way am I trying to insult you either. For instance, I am no good what so-ever at accounting, cooking, flying an areoplane and many other things. I am very good with electronics and consumer equipment.
Well, I did properly assess your level of skill, but you are overestimating what you are capable of. I am not making fun of anyone, in fact I am both worried for your safety and also what condition those amplifiers will be in when you sell them to the next poor guy. I have no doubt that you will proudly indicate they were properly serviced and brought up to date. That is both depressing to me, and somewhat worrisome as well.
You are right about exactly one thing in the above statement. This is indeed DIYAudio. That's it, the rest is based on your own poor conclusions and assumptions. This is indeed a site where we do help people out. However, a person who does not possess the skills and proper knowledge can not be helped out. That's you, in case you are wondering. The social responsibility for those who know more is to impart their knowledge to those who are in a position to accept and understand the information. I really do not know what your skills are, but having trained many technicians in my life, and firing almost as many because they were not good enough, I do have enough experience to correctly assess what you do not know, based on your comments and questions. Most of the people I was forced to let go either did not have enough self-pride and care to do a reasonable job, or they simply could not grasp the concepts fully.
Now, as for being helpful. I was directing you in a helpful manner. You confused "being helpful" with allowing you to perform some dangerous procedures without the proper knowledge and equipment. Just because you want to do something does not mean that no one should advise you that you are not in a position to do the job properly. Read my tag line.
-Chris
Hi Ardvaark,
I had to cut my response in three. So here is some more ...
Did you know I often tell people how to do simple procedures over the phone instead of bringing the product in to me? Let's just say that it's a large number. It's better for me, because then I get to work on real problems, instead of straight maintenance issues. You sure assume a lot for a person who will not use their real name.
And yet once again we see that rather silly idea that you should be able to do as you please with your property. That is one selfish point of view. So, while it is your legal right to do whatever you want pretty much, you are being morally irresponsible.
The way I see things is that we are simply stewards of the items we have in our possession. It is up to us to look after anything properly that may be sold or given to someone else in the future (as often happens with sound equipment). You may be endangering someone else's speakers, house (due to fire, speakers do burn) or simply by ripping them off by selling goods in poor condition.
I'll give you a valuable bit of advice. Understand that I have never owned or used one of these ESR meters, but I have tested capacitors afterwards that were processed by one of these. Make sure that the test voltage and current are not high enough to cause damage. That means it should not be able to reverse bias a PN junction to the point of breakdown, or that it can not pass high enough currents through a forward biased PN junction.
In short, know the equipment that you are using. I knew one "tech" that destroyed ICs, one after the other. He was testing them with an AVO meter, resistance between the pins. Poof.
I was actually giving you a nod that you probably had greater skills than I do at some things, and that is probably true. The extension to that would be, what would you say to someone if our positions were reversed? That's assuming you work at an activity that could be dangerous, and that had well known and long training courses for. So, what do you do for a living? I see that you listed your occupation as a "Maintenance Manager". for what?
So instead of getting your testosterone up, consider that I was truly worried that you could have hurt yourself, or an onlooker watching you work. You really do not have any understanding, do you?
I am being helpful and I do have a very real concern for your safety and others that may encounter these amplifiers in the future.
If you are training a new hire in your plant, do you not point out the dangers first thing? Don't you have to clear them on the safety training before allowing them into the plant area? That goes for service trades people as well normally.
You exhibited a lack of understanding for your own safety in these procedures. Clearly. To help you where you are at is exactly what I am doing now, and then. Once you are aware of safety issues, you might be able to learn more.
Also, to further address your comment. The seemingly simple act of repairing and amplifier is somewhat more detailed than you think it is. Why the devil to people have to take post secondary education for three years (minimum), then work in the field for many years before they might become proficient at it? I find that your idea that this is a very simple thing that anyone can do somewhat insulting to every trained technican everywhere. That is the thinking that gets people into trouble.
Now, I refuse to teach anyone how to perform service if they require very basic training. Especially when they refuse to accept the fact that they need more information for a task.
Once again, you are confusing "help" with getting what you want. In fact, had you taken the time to effectively search, you would see these schematics are out there already.
There are some odd assumptions you make yet again, I'll ignore those. Now ...
-Chris
I had to cut my response in three. So here is some more ...
For me, it's about helping. It's also about reducing the amount of electronic carnage out there. Quite frankly Ardvaark, I am pretty tired of cleaning up other people's messes. I do so at a loss financially because I can't charge for all the work that is involved sometimes. It is getting depressing for me. I just did 5 repairs in a row that were "struck by technician". If I was in it for the money, I would charge a lot more per hour (been the same for 15 years at least now) and refuse a lot more work. Given that I am in this position, I have every right to point out when I see another job that will cost some poor technician time that he can't charge for. The people that do good, clean work and understand what they are doing are the ones who are saints. The people who carry on and plow though a job without understanding what they are doing are headaches for everyone else. Thank goodness these sorts are in the minority.
Did you know I often tell people how to do simple procedures over the phone instead of bringing the product in to me? Let's just say that it's a large number. It's better for me, because then I get to work on real problems, instead of straight maintenance issues. You sure assume a lot for a person who will not use their real name.
Sure it was! I said "That reading clearing indicates a fault.", meaning that you should learn from this example. You didn't think it was helpful because it's not the comment you wanted to hear. Actually, I was starting to respond to the tone in your posts as well.
Well, I am trying to both save you from injury and expense caused by your lack of knowledge. What you should have done was to think about what you did, and why it may have been the wrong thing to do. I am helping.
And yet once again we see that rather silly idea that you should be able to do as you please with your property. That is one selfish point of view. So, while it is your legal right to do whatever you want pretty much, you are being morally irresponsible.
The way I see things is that we are simply stewards of the items we have in our possession. It is up to us to look after anything properly that may be sold or given to someone else in the future (as often happens with sound equipment). You may be endangering someone else's speakers, house (due to fire, speakers do burn) or simply by ripping them off by selling goods in poor condition.
Well, if you feel that way, I guess there is no purpose for me to assist you then. Of course, it';s always possible that you didn't understand what was going on, or the post may be out of context. I do try to be as accurate as I can.
Yeah, that's what I figured you were using. In circuit no less I'll bet. Well, maybe you ought to consider why most good service centers do not use these. Calibration labs and service centers sure as heck will not use one either. I went cheap and bought an HP 4263A, new. I couldn't afford the more expensive units. I had an earlier 4261A that I wish I still had, and also something called a "Daetron MC300" Digital capacitance meter that my service guys kindly blew up on me. I bought it so that they wouldn't destroy my 4261A (which they finally did). I was able to repair both. Now, think about why an ESR meter like the one you have might possibly do damage if used in circuit. TV people like to use ESR meters. They do one specific test for a failure mode common in higher current pulse applications, like the horizontal pulse trains and other similar things.
I'll give you a valuable bit of advice. Understand that I have never owned or used one of these ESR meters, but I have tested capacitors afterwards that were processed by one of these. Make sure that the test voltage and current are not high enough to cause damage. That means it should not be able to reverse bias a PN junction to the point of breakdown, or that it can not pass high enough currents through a forward biased PN junction.
In short, know the equipment that you are using. I knew one "tech" that destroyed ICs, one after the other. He was testing them with an AVO meter, resistance between the pins. Poof.
Asking after the fact is not normally what the average intelligent person does. Why on earth would you not ask first? Especially if you knew you were not trained in the activities you were about to engage in!
I was actually giving you a nod that you probably had greater skills than I do at some things, and that is probably true. The extension to that would be, what would you say to someone if our positions were reversed? That's assuming you work at an activity that could be dangerous, and that had well known and long training courses for. So, what do you do for a living? I see that you listed your occupation as a "Maintenance Manager". for what?
Actually, my comment was
It is not an assumption. That was a real possibility and I have witnessed this happen more than once. One guy had electrolyte sprayed in his face and it damaged one eye.
So instead of getting your testosterone up, consider that I was truly worried that you could have hurt yourself, or an onlooker watching you work. You really do not have any understanding, do you?
Prove it, just once. Please!
I am being helpful and I do have a very real concern for your safety and others that may encounter these amplifiers in the future.
Well, I have been helpful.
If you are training a new hire in your plant, do you not point out the dangers first thing? Don't you have to clear them on the safety training before allowing them into the plant area? That goes for service trades people as well normally.
You exhibited a lack of understanding for your own safety in these procedures. Clearly. To help you where you are at is exactly what I am doing now, and then. Once you are aware of safety issues, you might be able to learn more.
Also, to further address your comment. The seemingly simple act of repairing and amplifier is somewhat more detailed than you think it is. Why the devil to people have to take post secondary education for three years (minimum), then work in the field for many years before they might become proficient at it? I find that your idea that this is a very simple thing that anyone can do somewhat insulting to every trained technican everywhere. That is the thinking that gets people into trouble.
Now, I refuse to teach anyone how to perform service if they require very basic training. Especially when they refuse to accept the fact that they need more information for a task.
Helpful, or not? Now there is a great discussion. You asked for this, I knew you were not ready to proceed. I also knew that many people would answer your request. Were they helpful? In their minds, they certainly were and I would thank them. However, you are still not prepared to service these amps. Sorry, the help you need was not the service information. The halp you need starts with an attitude shift and some honest study on your part.
Once again, you are confusing "help" with getting what you want. In fact, had you taken the time to effectively search, you would see these schematics are out there already.
There are some odd assumptions you make yet again, I'll ignore those. Now ...
Hardly. I have always been fairly consistant in my approach to people needing help. My actions where explained early on, and again here and there. I understand that you are annoyed because I didn't simply fold and hand you whatever you wanted. But you still fail to understand that you do not have what it takes to properly service these amplifiers. In fact, you purposely bought them with a clear understanding that you were not capable of servicing them. I think that is one thing that really stands out. It's your excuse that you can not afford to have them professionally serviced properly. You found the money to buy them .... Yeah, right. Tell me, did you take them in for estimate with the intent to find out what was what needed replacement without having to pay by refusing the estimate? I've seen that before as well.
-Chris
Hi Ardvaark,
Last bit, thank goodness! Way too much effort expended here for the value of it.
What people should do is assist others when they already have some reasonable amount of skill and understanding. You know what? There has been enough written here to have answered all your questions had you looked using the search function. All this is a repeat of earlier information. If you didn't understand that, you should have known that more study on your part was needed. None of this is anyone's fault but your own, for not absorbing or finding those answers. Even my posts had enough information so that you should not have had to ask much, or make some of the mistakes you have already made.
Look, from the comments you have made so far, and all the things you have ignored, I think it's pretty clear that you do not wish for any of my help. I'm pretty cool with that actually. So, while I will leave you be for now, I'll certainly consider helping you if you wake up. For now, I have spent far too much energy attempting to assist you, and that is something I have to watch. For me, time is short and valuable. That has zero to do with you, it is my own problems. I will probably be around after I rest up a couple days. I do not see that you need help from me though, and there are other people who can assist you better than I can.
-Chris
Last bit, thank goodness! Way too much effort expended here for the value of it.
Actually, no. This is not a place where you come to take free technical assistance and keep popping in whenever you have a problem. Take Take Take.
What people should do is assist others when they already have some reasonable amount of skill and understanding. You know what? There has been enough written here to have answered all your questions had you looked using the search function. All this is a repeat of earlier information. If you didn't understand that, you should have known that more study on your part was needed. None of this is anyone's fault but your own, for not absorbing or finding those answers. Even my posts had enough information so that you should not have had to ask much, or make some of the mistakes you have already made.
I did start off respecting your needs - absolutely.
Look, from the comments you have made so far, and all the things you have ignored, I think it's pretty clear that you do not wish for any of my help. I'm pretty cool with that actually. So, while I will leave you be for now, I'll certainly consider helping you if you wake up. For now, I have spent far too much energy attempting to assist you, and that is something I have to watch. For me, time is short and valuable. That has zero to do with you, it is my own problems. I will probably be around after I rest up a couple days. I do not see that you need help from me though, and there are other people who can assist you better than I can.
-Chris
Slow day up north? 😉
That's a lot more than I would have troubled with for our tubulidentata friend.
That's a lot more than I would have troubled with for our tubulidentata friend.
Hi Glenn,
Nah, he bit the hand that would have fed him. As well, I'm really in a lot of discomfort right now. You may or may not see me here tomorrow. I'm thinking not at the moment.
How are things 'cross the border these days? Good I hope. Anything new with you?
Hey, I picked up a GPS discipled 10 MHz oscillator. It even works! Now I'll have an accurate frequency reference and that will also be fed to a number of instruments to lock it all together.
-Chris 🙂
Nah, he bit the hand that would have fed him. As well, I'm really in a lot of discomfort right now. You may or may not see me here tomorrow. I'm thinking not at the moment.
How are things 'cross the border these days? Good I hope. Anything new with you?
Hey, I picked up a GPS discipled 10 MHz oscillator. It even works! Now I'll have an accurate frequency reference and that will also be fed to a number of instruments to lock it all together.
-Chris 🙂
Busy...stuck in the cellar sniffing solder flux, fighting my intermittent solder iron (damn you Weller!), and listening to Beethoven 7th.
Guess things could be worse. 😱
Guess things could be worse. 😱
Ok, good! Now that that is over.
Anatech, you still don't get it. I no longer expect you to. Nor do I wish to expend any more energies on it.
Lets move forward, please. But if in the future if you wish to respond any of my posts I will be taking you to task.
The 10:1 Simple Green and water conductivity vs. alcohol conductivity subject you failed miserably on. This will harm people and equipment!
If you want to go there again we can.
Enjoy!
Ardvaark
Anatech, you still don't get it. I no longer expect you to. Nor do I wish to expend any more energies on it.
Lets move forward, please. But if in the future if you wish to respond any of my posts I will be taking you to task.
The 10:1 Simple Green and water conductivity vs. alcohol conductivity subject you failed miserably on. This will harm people and equipment!
If you want to go there again we can.
Enjoy!
Ardvaark
Hi Ardvaark,
Whether the Simple Green solution is conductive or not really has zero to do with anything. As I mentioned, you must wash the PCB after the cleaning every single time. You must be positive there is no residue from anything left on the board when you are done. Then, shake off the excess water and use a dryer to finish cleaning. Take care not to overheat any components when drying.
Now, since the PCB is disconnected from the amplifier chassis when you are cleaning it, applying power would be somewhat difficult. Therefore, the conductivity of the fluid really does not come into play. I have to admit that a conductive liquid would serve to protect static sensitive components while in the washing cycle, if that matters. Once you are done cleaning, all residues are rinsed away, so you are left without any cleaning fluid or residues from whatever you where cleaning off. The dry (and non-conductive) board has the removed parts replaced and is installed back into the amplifier. So, how does the conductivity of the cleaning affect anything at this point?
I noticed you were careful to specify the 10:1 mix. I use different concentrations depending on the job, for PCB cleaning, face plates and whatever else, I often use the 20:1 I have mixed for exterior case cleaning. 10:1 is for tougher cases and may foam slightly. 10:1 is the mixture I use in the ultrasonic cleaner though.
All in all, the conductivity question was a red herring, just noise. There is nothing to be won or lost to begin with there.
I have warned people to remove the semi-fixed resistors and capacitors before cleaning. Almost any cleaner you can think of will be harmful to those. So, if that is the basis of your warning, it's been covered already.
-Chris
I'm not really sure what it is that I don't get. I guess that in that case, you are right in that I "won't get it". That's okay though.
Well, this is why I must respond.
Whether the Simple Green solution is conductive or not really has zero to do with anything. As I mentioned, you must wash the PCB after the cleaning every single time. You must be positive there is no residue from anything left on the board when you are done. Then, shake off the excess water and use a dryer to finish cleaning. Take care not to overheat any components when drying.
Now, since the PCB is disconnected from the amplifier chassis when you are cleaning it, applying power would be somewhat difficult. Therefore, the conductivity of the fluid really does not come into play. I have to admit that a conductive liquid would serve to protect static sensitive components while in the washing cycle, if that matters. Once you are done cleaning, all residues are rinsed away, so you are left without any cleaning fluid or residues from whatever you where cleaning off. The dry (and non-conductive) board has the removed parts replaced and is installed back into the amplifier. So, how does the conductivity of the cleaning affect anything at this point?
I noticed you were careful to specify the 10:1 mix. I use different concentrations depending on the job, for PCB cleaning, face plates and whatever else, I often use the 20:1 I have mixed for exterior case cleaning. 10:1 is for tougher cases and may foam slightly. 10:1 is the mixture I use in the ultrasonic cleaner though.
All in all, the conductivity question was a red herring, just noise. There is nothing to be won or lost to begin with there.
It is environmentally friendly. If you have any information that proves otherwise, take them to court. You'll be a wealthy fellow then. Ralph Nader will probably hop on board with that trip too.
I have warned people to remove the semi-fixed resistors and capacitors before cleaning. Almost any cleaner you can think of will be harmful to those. So, if that is the basis of your warning, it's been covered already.
Did.
Yawn.
-Chris
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