1st issue digital CD releases vs streamed/downloaded later re-issues

Wonder how you guys feel to what I say below?

Playing "original non-remastered" CD's are usually so much better to my ears in dynamic range, than any new (just louder) CD's that been remastered, and that are usually used by streaming/download companies, which have been dynamically compressed.

(but compression does have it's place and is good for "music on the move in noisy background situations" car, iPod, ear buds etc etc)

Original first issues CD's are the best for dynamic range, which gives the music and your brain a "chance to breath", you can't have "loud" if you have no "quite"
Here is just one example of a classic one only made album but re-issued many times of a British–American supergroup consisting of Bob Dylan, George Harrison, Jeff Lynne, Roy Orbison and Tom Petty. " The Travelling Willburys"

Look what happens the younger the re-issues become
Green is good (uncompressed), yellow (fair), orange and red (compressed rubbish)
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=Traveling+Wilburys

Cheers George
 

UserAbuser

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2019-09-27 11:18 pm
Sadly I have also noticed that early releases tend to be better sounding.
Not all I don't think, but most.
I have four copies of Dark side of the moon, including a super wizz bang 'optical grade' gold version.
The original I bought maaaaaany years (decades) ago still sounds far better.

MFSL do the occasional remastering.
Normally a good improvement, but not so much these days.
I believe the gent that used to do the remastering has retired and a new gent has taken over.

And why are there no good recordings of Nora Jones :(
 
I have four copies of Dark side of the moon,

Yes, I have 6 different re-issues of DSOTM and to my ear non are great, one early 80's is ok.
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=Pink+Floyd&album=Dark+Side+of+the+Moon Looks like the 24/96 pcm quad one which I don't have done by Alan Parsons "may" be good.

Then you listen to something like Roger Waters "Amused to Death" and it's in another ball park.
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=Roger+Waters&album=Amused+to+death
Cheers George
 
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My take on early CD releases mastered from analogue was most CDs sounded mediocre because they were nearly all mastered on Sony's 16-bit 44.1 PCM1600 series type A-D converters with their characteristic timbre. It was some years before these horrid Sonys were retired and better A-Ds became commonplace.

"Best of" and complication CDs almost always sound bad, and even remastered audiophile releases of audiophile recordings are often flops. In around the late '90s I bought a "½ speed remastered audiophile gold plated edition CD" of Jazz at the Pawnshop for ~US$100 that not only sounded bad, but didn't run at the correct speed! Two previously purchased CD versions from the original label sounded different to each other, but both were closer to the vinyl.

These days if I re-buy a CD I already have, it will most likely be on vinyl provided a decent versions exists and is obtainable at reasonable cost. Obviously this does not apply to recordings that started in the digital domain - can't think of a good reason to listen to a digital recording on vinyl.
 
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My take on early CD releases mastered from analogue was most CDs sounded mediocre because they were nearly all mastered on Sony's 16-bit 44.1

That's half right, it's because they were replayed on CD players of the time that were brick walled filtered etc. etc, among other problems they had rubbish i/v converters, crap output buffers etc etc. and who knows how much jitter.
Play those same early uncompressed 16/44 cd's back today on today's units, especially on good R2R ladder ones, and you be absolutely gob smacked just how good they are, may even shift you from the vinyl.

Cheers George
 
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You are absolutely correct George. The first available CD player in Australia, the Sony CDP101, sounded like someone had spilt custard over recordings. By the mid-late eighties CD players were significantly better. Then in ~2008 when I first heard a Cyrus CD 8 SE I was gobsmacked, so much so I used one for a source for an AES presentation. It seemed that after a hiatus in the 90s and early 00s, DACs in CD players suddenly took a leap forward, and they have continued to improve since.
 
Sony CDP101, sounded like someone had spilt custard over recordings.
Yep, that was my first also CDP101 then the CDP701 which was twice the price and sounded just as bad. I bought them from Instrol hifi George st Sydney and got the very first CD also in Australia Dire Straits, from Quality Hifi the same day , it was shocking to listen to on either unit, but I still have that very first Dire Straits CD and now it sounds magnificent.
Cheers George
 
I still have that very first Dire Straits CD and now it sounds magnificent.
In 1980 I was struck when listening to the sound of the first track to be played by Adelaide's first commercial FM radio station, DoubleSA FM, which was Sultans of Swing. Back in those days everything on radio was played from cartridge tapes on Tomcat cart players, and there was a transcription department that did all the vinyl to tape transfers. The carts for each DJ's playlist were loaded up onto a rotating stand that was wheeled into the studio.

Commercial FM stations must have transcribed from vinyl back then, because there were no CDs. I had a decent record player, but for some reason I never bought the Dire Straits disk as far as I can remember. I can't suffer the recording on CD and even the 2009 vinyl remastered by Bob Ludwig and Warner Bros Records and pressed by Palace in Germany doesn't do it for me, although the 2009 Warner Bros Communiqué released in the same series is absolutely sensational, reputedly one of the very best pressings ever done by anyone.

As well as the Warner Bros release of the Dire Straits self titled album, I have acquired in recent years three first release vinyl copies: the Australian, New Zealand and Japanese, none of which capture the sound I heard on that 1980 broadcast. I guess SSAFM were getting UK first presses ahead of Australian releases to transcribe and be ready to play when the records hit the shops. Perhaps I need to track down a first release CD (I didn't buy it when it came out later). :rolleyes:

Though I like the music Making Movies sounds crap to my ears regardless of format, and Brothers In Arms sounds utterly digital on any format because it is - it was recorded on an early digital multitrack (Sony 24-track?).

These days my entire digital musical collection is on a MacBook Pro and backed up on an Airport Time Capsule. If I'm really listening to music I play vinyl, otherwise I stream to a DAC and it is pretty good for background listening. One comment I'll make is that Yello has always sounded good on digital, at least to me (I have 13 of their 14 studio albums), and I can't understand why it's seemingly been so much better sounding than run of the mill digital recordings.
 
Get a good R2R ladder dac, mines the MSB Discrete and listen to those "early non compressed" CD's that are just stunning to hear, and can be got for $5 on ebay, but I see they are increasing in price now.
Don't draw any conclusions about 16/44 24/96 or DXD (PCM) using Delta Sigma based dacs, they are good for DSD or SACD which is (streamed/download), but can only give a "facsimile" of what PCM 16/44 24/96 or DXD sound like.

Cheers George
 
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In 1980 I was struck when listening to the sound of the first track to be played by Adelaide's first commercial FM radio station, DoubleSA FM, which was Sultans of Swing. Back in those days everything on radio was played from cartridge tapes on Tomcat cart players, and there was a transcription department that did all the vinyl to tape transfers. The carts for each DJ's playlist were loaded up onto a rotating stand that was wheeled into the studio.

Commercial FM stations must have transcribed from vinyl back then, because there were no CDs. I had a decent record player, but for some reason I never bought the Dire Straits disk as far as I can remember. I can't suffer the recording on CD and even the 2009 vinyl remastered by Bob Ludwig and Warner Bros Records and pressed by Palace in Germany doesn't do it for me, although the 2009 Warner Bros Communiqué released in the same series is absolutely sensational, reputedly one of the very best pressings ever done by anyone.

As well as the Warner Bros release of the Dire Straits self titled album, I have acquired in recent years three first release vinyl copies: the Australian, New Zealand and Japanese, none of which capture the sound I heard on that 1980 broadcast. I guess SSAFM were getting UK first presses ahead of Australian releases to transcribe and be ready to play when the records hit the shops. Perhaps I need to track down a first release CD (I didn't buy it when it came out later). :rolleyes:

Though I like the music Making Movies sounds crap to my ears regardless of format, and Brothers In Arms sounds utterly digital on any format because it is - it was recorded on an early digital multitrack (Sony 24-track?).

These days my entire digital musical collection is on a MacBook Pro and backed up on an Airport Time Capsule. If I'm really listening to music I play vinyl, otherwise I stream to a DAC and it is pretty good for background listening. One comment I'll make is that Yello has always sounded good on digital, at least to me (I have 13 of their 14 studio albums), and I can't understand why it's seemingly been so much better sounding than run of the mill digital recordings.
Your last sentence woke me up from almost dozing off with this thread. I have to agree. I was never a proper fan of Yello until I happened to listen to a couple of borrowed CDs on my old Sony player. Good grief! The strength and percussion is like being punched in the gut. Ya don't wanna listen to "The Race" sitting between the speakers playing loud.
 
I was never a proper fan of Yello until I happened to listen to a couple of borrowed CDs on my old Sony player. Good grief! The strength and percussion is like being punched in the gut. Ya don't wanna listen to "The Race" sitting between the speakers playing loud.

Yes Yello's Race track, came on their Flag album, and it shows quite clearly the early recoding's on CD and Vinyl are far superior in dynamic range compared to the later compressed re-issues that streaming and download companies would be using.
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc?artist=Yello&album=Flag
And that better dynamic range is starting to be reflected in the price of buying those used older cd's, sellers are being informed they have wanted items.
(YELLO Flag CD 1988 Mercury 836 426-2) used $57!!!
https://tinyurl.com/5xac3a8f

Cheers George
 
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It's interesting to see that on the Dynamic Range Database that the 2012 vinyl of Abbey Road rates second only to the 1969 first release. This particular record was one of the first vinyls I bought when I began to rebuilt my record collection. It was revelation in how bad sounding a supposed good recording can be: free from surface noise and uncompressed maybe, but musicality destroyed by the digital remastering process, I can't listen to it and keep it only as a novelty.
 
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Abbey Road but musicality destroyed by the digital remastering process

I've found different reason to not liking those early CD's that are very L/R pingpong sounding, yet on vinyl they are richer and much less pingpong sounding, and that is because of this.


After living with 120dB channel separation from 20hz to 20khz, for so long.
I just can't come to grips with only having at best 30-35dB at 1khz, slowly diminishing above that, and then virtually mono in the bass.

What I did for old Beatles ect CD's that were very left/right ping pong sounding on digital systems, but were better on vinyl "because of the lousy channel separation", which tends to richened them up because of the monoizing.
Was to insert a switchable bleed resistor between right and left channel output on the cd player or dac which cut the 120dB separation and then gave 35dB channel separation on CD right across the board 20hz to 20khz this makes it "almost" like the vinyl monoizing richness without the surface noise and scratches then.

It the cd channel bleed resistor, would be even closer to vinyl if a more complicated passive network that followed the vinyl channel separation closer.

This is an expensive Lyra Dorian cartridge dB channel separation bottom traces.


0dB at 20hz
36dB at 1khz
12dB at 15khz.


1698888827_lyradorianchannelseparation.gif.df8eeb0f046cbc0a2b202e7e48b14217.gif





Cheers George
 
I wasn't clear, the Abbey Road I was referring to destroyed by digital remastering is the EMI 2012 vinyl pressed from 2009 digital remasters of the original tapes. That vinyl record when played back has all the characteristic crosstalk included. To my ears both the 2012 vinyl and the 16 bit digital CD master made from the same master sound equally digital. As I said, I've kept the 2012 vinyl as a novelty, and have a 1972 London pressing for actual listening to.

The problem I have with digital is that it changes forever how acoustic instruments (including voice) sound, and those changes cannot be undone. A simple analogy is that of looking through a window: a digital window may be very crisp and clean, well exposed and focussed, but it has a tincture, and that is what I hear within an instant of listening to digitally processed sound. That tincture is not a naturally occurring sound so to be it stands out like the proverbial dogs balls. I bought Bothers In Arms on vinyl and was shocked to hear a digital recording when the stylus hit the vinyl. As it turns out Brothers In Arms was one of the very first Sony 24 track digital recordings.

It's actually easy to hear the characteristic sound of digital. Play a simple instrument, for example, a triangle, and listen to the acoustic nature of the instrument. Then try to find a digital recording of a triangle (or do your own) and see if you can find one that has the same innate sonic character. You won't, or at least I haven't been able to in over 30 years. Warning: Don't try this experiment if you want to keep believing digital recordings sound great and/or realistic. Of course, I am not saying that digital hasn't improved enourmously over the years!
 
Abbey Road I was referring to destroyed by digital remastering is the EMI 2012 vinyl pressed from 2009
Right you were talking about the digital remastered vinyl reissues.

And what I was on about is the nasty ping pong left/right sounds of those first issues on CD, nothing helped them, but monoizing a little did, as I explained above.

Cheers George
 
Well, since the discussion includes a lot about CD verses vinyl, for vinyl we are now using DS Audio optical cartridges with a custom preamp design. Its so much better than any magnetic cart tried, including some in the $10k range, that we don't bother with magnetic at all anymore. Regarding CD, still working on how to make it compete with vinyl. Conversion to DSD for playback seems to be preferred by all listeners, as verses direct playback of the PCM encoding on CDs.
 
I had the luck to by a Sony CDP-101 in 2014 NEW. I sat in the cellar of the store for 32 years, unpacked,
with two other units. It has a timbre but in a blind test, without no one knowing, it could be picked as the latest high end stuff.
About early recordings:
It is said that Donald Fagens "Nightfly" sounds bad because of the signature of the 3M’s new $115,000 32-track Digital Audio Mastering System:
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/the-...version-of-donald-fagen’s-the-nightfly-r1006/One favourite of mine, Joe Jackson´s "Body and Soul" was recorded on the same system. It has a punchy glare as well.

ECM records are famous for their sound. They do not seem to do remasterings, besides SACD and Hires Re-Issues.
Digitizing from analog masters their recordings sounded decent from the very beginning.
And if I am not wrong, records like "Brothers in Arms" had an analog mixing step, so they were digitized twice...
Once, I wanted to reissue a recordings mase in 1985 from people like Pauline Oliveros and Conrad Bauer made in an empty watertank with a 50 second reverb, "Vor der Flut".
https://www.discogs.com/de/release/1123083-Various-Vor-Der-Flut-Hommage-An-Einen-WasserspeicherDidn´t work out because the producer stored them in a wet cellar - the original analog tapes were rotten with mold.
Next to them was a Sony PCM-F1 the producer used for the CD-Version:
https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/sony/pcm-f1.htm#meas
 
It is said that Donald Fagens "Nightfly" sounds bad because of the signature of the 3M’s new $115,000 32-track Digital Audio Mastering System:
Or something else they used below, as he is an anti compression artist like many now from that era, no part of that album was compressed. https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=Donald+Fagen&album=The+Nightfly
Quoted from Sound on Sound and how they did the recording for him
"Donald had done his other overdubs there," comments the engineer, "and was comfortable there. They have a Neve VR and all the analogue equipment that we needed, so it made sense to mix there. The mixes went from Pro Tools through the Neve VR and then to two-track half-inch analogue. Since I hardly use EQ during mixing, any EQ that I do will be applied during the mix. So I did some EQ-ing, and added some reverb, using the EMT 140 plates at Avatar, and also a Lexicon 480 and a TC3000. I only used room mics on the drums. I also used a Fairchild 670 on the bass and kick drum. There was no compression during recording."

One favorite of mine, Joe Jackson´s "Body and Soul" was recorded on the same system. It has a punchy glare as well.
Same with him till you get to the one single re-issue in 1997 https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=Joe+Jackson&album=Body+and+Soul
https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=Joe+Jackson&album=Body+and+Soul
Cheers George
 
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Please let me know your thoughts.

I've put together WAV or MP3 recordings of the same thing whatever you want to play it on, of Uncompressed v Compressed immediately following each other.

The beginning is Uncompressed then a little Compressed, average volume recording is adjusted to be the same perceived "loudness" listen to the difference of the space between the sounds and the kick and punch to the sound

WAV file
https://soundcloud.com/george-stantscheff%2Fwav-uncompressed-v-compressed
MP3 file
https://soundcloud.com/george-stantscheff%2Fmp3-uncompressed-v-compressed-1




Cheers George