10" - 12" (or?) for ~100 Hz - ~2,000 Hz

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Doppler9000

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Joined 2010
#1
I am looking for a driver to fill in a three way between an 18” sub and a Beyma 150 or 200 tweeter – roughly 100 ~ 2,000 Hz.

I want an articulate, lively, snappy, but not strident presentation.

I would like to be able to get 110 dB SPL at 120 Hz, so one-way Xmax of 2.2mm for a typical 12” and 3.4mm for a 10”. I am open to a 15”, as well. I am willing to go to a somewhat higher Xover frequency if it brings in some better sounding drivers.

In terms of thermal, I am unlikely to hit the constraint here, but enough power handling to get to 100 dB SPL continuous and 115 dB peaks. This translates to 2.5W and 90W, respectively, given a sensitivity of 96 dB @ 1 watt, 8 ohms.

I know Al at US Speaker recommends the 12” Ciare 12NDH-3. Eminence suggested the 10” Deltalite II 2510. I am open to suggestions.

TIA
 
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#3
Even an 8 inch driver gets pretty directional at 2kHZ, causing an off axis jump in the FR at the crossover frequency of 2kHZ, right where the ear is so sensitive. You might consider a diopilito (sp?) arrangement of two 6 inch Peerless nomex cone drivers. A vertical array with the tweeter in between them. I highly recommend using a 24dB/octave active crossover too. Those 18 inch woofers suggest that you want to play loud.
 
#4
Bob Richards said:
Even an 8 inch driver gets pretty directional at 2kHZ, causing an off axis jump in the FR at the crossover frequency of 2kHZ, right where the ear is so sensitive. You might consider a diopilito (sp?) arrangement of two 6 inch Peerless nomex cone drivers. A vertical array with the tweeter in between them. I highly recommend using a 24dB/octave active crossover too. Those 18 inch woofers suggest that you want to play loud.
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I do want the ability to play loud, hence the 10-12" driver choice. The two sixes you mention won't make it, I'm afraid, analyzing their combined displacement-limited SPL peak. 6 and 8" drivers with big Xmax specs tend to get porky. I have thought through the trade-offs, and am unlikely to veer to such a different path at this point.
 
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#5
Doppler9000 said:
I do want the ability to play loud, hence the 10-12" driver choice. The two sixes you mention won't make it, I'm afraid, analyzing their combined displacement-limited SPL peak. 6 and 8" drivers with big Xmax specs tend to get porky. I have thought through the trade-offs, and am unlikely to veer to such a different path at this point.
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And you're right to do so.

For the past 10 years or so i used a 10'' Volt midbass (crossed about 120hz-800hz, sometimes up to 1.4khz) and now i'm looking for something with even more energy, snap, etc..

The one that i found is the 18'' 18FH500, pretty extreme but look at the specs... Useable up to 3khz, i personnally like it 'til 1.7khz so i guess you would be very pleased with his little brother the 15FH500 from the same series.

FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 15FH500

Would also consider the 15PR400, which might better suit your needs if you don't care about the lower Xmax
 
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#9
I know Al at US Speaker recommends the 12” Ciare 12NDH-3. Eminence suggested the 10” Deltalite II 2510.
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I wouldnt even consider the 10'' Deltalite.

Al is right, the Ciare is a nice driver, not a extraordinary Sd/Mms ratio though and higher Fs + lower Qts means you might struggle to make a decent bridge @ 120hz with your 18's...

If you can make the jump to the 15 inchers, it might be your best bet.
 
#11
Doppler9000 said:
Thanks, ZVU.

Can you elaborate on any of the relative merits of the three?
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JBL 2202H i listened in JBL legacy monitors 4355. It is one of the best midranges i ever heard. Xovered at 200-1200Hz. It has very small hint of a breakup (unlike ridges that can be seen at
many other 12" midwoofers) so xover is not complicated.

Beyma 12p80Nd has been a long time favorite, used with Beyma TPL150 tweeter. There are lots of guys here that have it. Angeloitacare used tons of speakers in a couple of years and he listens to it for last couple of years without the urge to change anything. Maybe you should contact him via PM just to see his impressions.

RCF L12p110k i had and used xovered at about 150-1700Hz. It is quite similar to JBL 2202H but very easy to find - unlike proper and unmolested JBL 2202H.

Eminence Deltalite II 2510 i listen at my friends house quite often with 18sound XT1086/B&C DE250-8 and it sounds quite open and detailed. Can be used a bit higher because it's 10" and starts to beam higher in frequency than 12".

I don't think you can make a mistake using any of the four i suggested.

cheers
 
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#13
 
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#14
This is what I use

Doppler9000 said:
I am looking for a driver to fill in a three way between an 18” sub and a Beyma 150 or 200 tweeter – roughly 100 ~ 2,000 Hz.

I want an articulate, lively, snappy, but not strident presentation.

I would like to be able to get 110 dB SPL at 120 Hz, so one-way Xmax of 2.2mm for a typical 12” and 3.4mm for a 10”. I am open to a 15”, as well. I am willing to go to a somewhat higher Xover frequency if it brings in some better sounding drivers.

In terms of thermal, I am unlikely to hit the constraint here, but enough power handling to get to 100 dB SPL continuous and 115 dB peaks. This translates to 2.5W and 90W, respectively, given a sensitivity of 96 dB @ 1 watt, 8 ohms.

I know Al at US Speaker recommends the 12” Ciare 12NDH-3. Eminence suggested the 10” Deltalite II 2510. I am open to suggestions.

TIA
Click to expand...


McCauley.com
: Products: Accessories > 6224: Overview
McCauley.com
: 6224 Specifications

Regards WHG
 
#16
Nonsense

Doppler9000 said:
Unfortunately it doesn't meet the Vd (SPL) requirement.
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The McCauley 6224 driver exceeds your performance requirements
with respect to full range (includes 120 Hz) SPL of 117 dB and a Xmax of 4.32 mm. Due to the larger Xmax, sensitivity is 3dB Lower. I usually configure Satellites as MTM or MTMM 2.5 to work with sub configurations typically crossed at 80 Hz; so, for me sensitivity here is a non-issue.

WHG
 
#18
whgeiger said:
Xmax of 4.32 mm
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In any case you've got to watch specifications like xmax and vd very closely for manufacturers conservatism/optimism/borderline false advertising (delete as appropriate)

Most PA driver manufacturers would calculate that driver's xmax to be 5.75mm. Faital Pro would calculate it to be 6.4mm!

[Voice coil winding depth - Magnetic gap depth / 2] + [nothing]/[magnetic gap depth / 4]/[magnetic gap depth / 3] (delete as appropriate)
 
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#19
Nonsense?

whgeiger said:
The McCauley 6224 driver exceeds your performance requirements
with respect to full range (includes 120 Hz) SPL of 117 dB and a Xmax of 4.32 mm. Due to the larger Xmax, sensitivity is 3dB Lower. I usually configure Satellites as MTM or MTMM 2.5 to work with sub configurations typically crossed at 80 Hz; so, for me sensitivity here is a non-issue.

WHG
Click to expand...
While I realize it has fallen out of favor of late, I still believe in digging in a little on the facts before declaring that something is nonsense.

The displacement-limited maximum SPL @ 1m, free space, of a driver with an SD of 350 sq cm and a one-way Xmax of 2.16mm* is 103 dB, according to the Siegfried Linkwitz Excel loudspeaker spreadsheets. To generate a 117dB at 120 Hz with this radiating area would require a one-way Xmax of 10.7mm (21.4mm peak-to-peak).

McCauleys’ claim that a 10” driver can deliver “full range” peaks of 123 dB ought to give the reader pause. For example, a 123 dB peak SPL@ 1 meter, would require a 42.5mm peak-to-peak Xmax at 120 Hz. The requirements increase dramatically as the frequency drops. 100 Hz, same conditions – 61.2mm p-p Xmax.

*I am assuming that McCauley Xmax spec is a linear, peak-to-peak figure.
 
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#20
20 litre vented box tuned to 85Hz, 850w input power (reasonable for peaks if 600w program),

126dB at 90Hz
124dB at 120Hz
121.5dB full range

WinISD simulations. Which are often a dB or two down on reality especially once you get towards the full range response which it's not very good at simulating.

You could happily EQ it up 1.5dB in the full range without running into either excursion or thermal issues and achieve 123dB at across the full specified range. (well, I say happily.. you'd be putting the driver at risk, would need the right gear and would need to know what you're doing...but it's the max peak rating innit).

That reaches an excursion peak of 6.45mm at 105Hz and again at 74Hz, which as mentioned is what a more optimistic manufacturer like Faital Pro would have rated this driver. Might not sound exactly buttery but it'll do it no problem.

Er.. that's half space by the way but since when are speakers rated in free space? You could get it pretty damn close to 123dB in free space though with a decent RMS and peak limiter.

The xmax rating on the data sheet will be one way. 8.64mm peak to peak. Or 12.8mm normalised to Faital Pro's calculation methods..which are unfortunately quite common and commonly accepted (one of their drivers was recommended in this thread without a caveat about excursion and it happens all the time).

Faital's xmax ratings tend to equate to something like 20% THD+N, which is more or less undetectable in sub freqs, and subjectively acceptable in bass freqs, but relatively useless for full range applications.
 
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