You're looking for an F4 with a tube front end for voltage gain (around 15V pp voltage swing will be more than okay). You could get to 50W with that amp... but it is a non-feedback amp... so it is better not to check the distortion spectre 🙂. However, you'll be able to tune the sound to exactly what you want and you'll be perfectly happy with the result.
This could demonstrate once again and convince even the most die-hard skeptics that distortion alone is not enough to identify how a device sounds and that even the definition of "wire with gain" is more marketing than anything else given that audio electronics, however advanced, still appear rather primitive as technology in my view.
With all the great respect I've for Bruno.
Just to highlight how in some cases one's beliefs can be misled by oneself and how often they are reiterated for the sole purpose of wanting to demonstrate one's useless beliefs at all costs, please note that after having trumpeted to the four winds that what one listens to is the system and not the piece of audio equipment, you said that amplifier is great.
Please note that this contradiction doesn't really bother me, but it should make you think about how many things are said for certain beliefs that have no real value, not even statistical.
In fact, you have just demonstrated that what you have in your signature is not true either, or at least that it is not entirely true.
Please also note that it is not an attack even if it seems like one, it is a pointer to my opinion which has always been different, possibilist, but not exclusive.
In order not to be misunderstood, please note that I also think that one listens to the system, but this does not exclude the ability to evaluate a single device, if you know the system in which you have inserted it thoroughly enough.
Furthermore, I agree, from direct experience, that that amplifier you mentioned is really "great".
Hi, I meant in its uncertainity, wasn't that obvious enough?
Just like PC science.
Yes it is advanced, as said and just as you ignored on purpose.
PC science also is advanced in a CPU just as an example, but not the same in Operative System.
If it was really advanced then you should never have to say: "Try that driver and see how it works" because you can't predict whether it will work or not.
Or: "That driver crashed my OS and now it won't boot anymore".
It wasn't at all derogatory as you want to make people believe just to create useless controversy.
It was and is my opinion, not derogatory.
The same with Audio science, and this time there's no need for me to give any examples, right?
I for one am not convinced of anything, especially not having any info on the bel amps he prefers. I still find it much more likely that Flaxxer prefers a more distorted sound (which as I've said, there's nothing wrong with). One person doesn't like a system with a low distortion amp in it, therefore "die hard skeptics" should do a complete 180?
Fwiw, I don't know all of the criteria that go into the signal an amplifier outputs, but I think it's ridiculous for Flaxxer to claim that class d sucks the life out of music on the basis that his bel amps sound more lifelike to him. It's a massive leap in reasoning
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I'm still convinced that it is a question of "interface" with the preamp (if any), which one could also try to eliminate from the signal path if one did not need to select more than one input.
And to use only a good DAC with volume variable output, for example, just to discover what happens.
Also the cables or even more importantly the type of connection used, I think I have already asked, but I do not remember there being an answer.
Class D amps must be connected with a balanced connection. IMHO
If I found out that they used an adapter or even RCA/XLR adapter cables instead I would be very disappointed, and I would explain to myself the reason for his disappointment too.
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Wrong, Bryguy.... What myself and others hear is NOT ridiculous.
It's simple truth that bites. Class D owners hate it. People wanting to switch to Class D hate it, like myself.
BEL amplifiers displaced a slew of $20k plus amplifiers from systems in the 90s. I'd know, as I was the salesman standing in the corner, watching the looks of disbelief on Krell, Rowland, Ayre, Levinson, etc amp owners faces. The knowledge a $3000 amp just ruined their new car priced amplifiers 😆. This was common for every BEL dealer. We made jokes about it amongst ourselves.
To judge my experience or criteria truly IS ridiculous of you. You have zero clue.... I am the one hearing the amplifiers back to back. I know what is up. I'm the one hoping to find a future as good as I've had it with BEL.
Mola mola, etc ... at this point I say, bring ANY Class D to my shop. I'm now experienced enough, first hand, to confidently say Class D is not "there" yet.
Want evidence? Bring any amp to compare. It's obvious that nothing has changed in the 26 years I've been trying to find a replacement/equal. As much as I'd like it to be different, it appears it's still the same as when I sold BEL for a living.
You have clearly missed my point entirely, as you have apparently throughout our entire conversation. There is nothing I can say in response to this other than to bang my head against the wall repeating the same stuff I've been saying this entire time. There is nothing wrong with having a preference. I don't question your experience, or your findings. I only take issue with the conclusions you draw based on your findings
What I find ridiculous is that you insist on one conclusion, while there are many other potential answers.
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Then I apologize for misunderstanding. I just think it's pretentious and silly to say, "then you must like listening to distortion".
Lack of distortion is NOT the magic key to great sound. Otherwise Purifi has won. But it's not making music for me. So that is obviously not the answer.
It's an easy cop out. It's an empirical viewpoint that Class D is superior, due to it's low distortion.
Guess what? My BEL amplifiers have zero audible noise from their black and quiet background... So am I after "blacker" for even better sound?
The silence isn't impressing me... the music is what I care about.
To notice so much resolution that the 5th flautist in the Orchestra passed an almost silent bit of gas, during the Firebird Suite isn't what I care about hearing.
I want music that I get lost in. Class D makes me fatigued and distracted.
Lack of distortion is NOT the magic key to great sound. Otherwise Purifi has won. But it's not making music for me. So that is obviously not the answer.
It's an easy cop out. It's an empirical viewpoint that Class D is superior, due to it's low distortion.
Guess what? My BEL amplifiers have zero audible noise from their black and quiet background... So am I after "blacker" for even better sound?
The silence isn't impressing me... the music is what I care about.
To notice so much resolution that the 5th flautist in the Orchestra passed an almost silent bit of gas, during the Firebird Suite isn't what I care about hearing.
I want music that I get lost in. Class D makes me fatigued and distracted.
When did I ever say you were wrong to seek these things out? When did I ever say follow low distortion to reach your goal? I have literally told you I don't think you will find what you're looking for in Nilai. Why is liking distortion so conceptually anathema to you that you entirely reject the possibility that it accounts for part of your preferences? And why is it pretentious to suggest it?
Purifi and Hypex represent some of the closest amplifiers we have to wire with gain. Every objective test we know to perform suggests this, as do most subjective assessments, including my own. If it is too dull for you, that suggests you prefer some embellishment. Is there anything wrong with that? No. Embellishment = distortion. I am making a very simple observation. I don't see why that is pretentious
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Bob Carver pretty much solved "amplifier sound" as being distortion.
His amplifier challenge showed that adding distortion in varying amounts to a generic amplifier, he could recreate the specific sound of other amplifiers :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver#Amplifier_modeling
His amplifier challenge showed that adding distortion in varying amounts to a generic amplifier, he could recreate the specific sound of other amplifiers :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver#Amplifier_modeling
There is little "reasoning" behind the argument being put forth, rather is is a subjective opinion which can't be logically supported. He prefers the sound of amp X, that's his prerogative. We know that by definition an amp does not have a sound in theory if it is perfect or if it's distortion products are below audibility. We know that not all amps produce distortion below audibility, like Hypex and Purifi, thus if he prefers a certain amp's "sound", it is not the lack sound of Hypex or Purifi but rather the added distortion that is pleasing to him. The anecdotal "evidence" he provides is not based on scientific listening tests or comparisons and thus is meaningless.
I don't think it's meaningless, but I do think it doesn't mean that class d is an inferior technology. I mean, I wouldn't regard subjective impressions gathered in a casual setting as scientific data, but I think they are still valuable in the context of discussing listening preferences
I think part of the whole contention here comes from treating distortion like the boogie man
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Again - it's a system game.
No one would assume that changing from a Pass amp to a Purifi in one and the same system will convince any class-D nay sayers. It will take more changes to that system in order to make the Purify show its capabilities. Maybe change all of it. Why? Because the rest of the system is tuned to the high distorting amp. A low distorting amp just don't fit in such a system. This is how a high distorting amp become an anchor. It safely sets the bar for whats possible to get out of the system.
This is just basic logic and I don't understand why we keep arguing about this again and again....
Its a system game.
//
No one would assume that changing from a Pass amp to a Purifi in one and the same system will convince any class-D nay sayers. It will take more changes to that system in order to make the Purify show its capabilities. Maybe change all of it. Why? Because the rest of the system is tuned to the high distorting amp. A low distorting amp just don't fit in such a system. This is how a high distorting amp become an anchor. It safely sets the bar for whats possible to get out of the system.
This is just basic logic and I don't understand why we keep arguing about this again and again....
Its a system game.
//
Fwiw, I probably would also prefer the bel's in Flaxxer's system over Nilai from how he describes it. I like a little embellishment too, I just don't seek it out in my amplification.
And I don't think I'd prefer the bel's because they're covering up flaws in his system. I think they are a link in a chain that work together to create a certain kind of sound, and to achieve that kind of sound his system probably requires an amp like the bel's
And I don't think I'd prefer the bel's because they're covering up flaws in his system. I think they are a link in a chain that work together to create a certain kind of sound, and to achieve that kind of sound his system probably requires an amp like the bel's
Although I haven't seen it mentioned, I take it everyone here has viewed the video comparison by Alpha Audio between Pass Labs class AB, Purifi Eigentakt, Hypex Nilai, and ICEPower amps? I realize various system components and third-party buffers (e.g.VTV) influence the overall picture somewhat, but this seems to be a worthwhile evaluation of the core hardware by three experienced listeners. I feel what they have to say in the conclusion is pertinent to this discussion.
Having entered the class D realm 1.5 years ago, I find it hardly surprising that one who expects a degree of warmth and girth typical of many class AB amps may find even the best class D platforms relatively stark and clinical. Admittedly, some of Flaxxer's criticsms of the Apollon amp I tend to interpret as potentially desirable attributes, but c'est la vie. Given the comments made in the Alpha Audio video, I suspect Flaxxer would find the Nilai most appealing.
Having entered the class D realm 1.5 years ago, I find it hardly surprising that one who expects a degree of warmth and girth typical of many class AB amps may find even the best class D platforms relatively stark and clinical. Admittedly, some of Flaxxer's criticsms of the Apollon amp I tend to interpret as potentially desirable attributes, but c'est la vie. Given the comments made in the Alpha Audio video, I suspect Flaxxer would find the Nilai most appealing.