With winter coming and the NEED to keep busy, i'm gonna build a pair of floor to ceiling fullrange arrays but no parameters have been set yet other than the ceiling height limitation of less than 8 ft. I'm thinking dual use and portability with the ability to support my 3 pc semi acoustic band in smaller venues with added subwoofer support.
So the Vifa TC9 has obviously proven to be a solid performer and really is very cost effective.....but i've also observed the benefit of drivers who have a rising response that naturally offsets the effects of comb filtering.
With portability logistics in play, i'd 'like' to keep them at 6ft overall length with the ability to me mounted above floor subs of say 20" or so giving an overall height of 8ft but have some concerns as to the array not being floor to ceiling? Unfounded?
Mini DSP/amps for stand alone operation?.....running advanced filters through a PC isn't an option.......but if i can't achieve maximum performance value without one then the project is fubar
Feedback, thoughts?......what would you have done differently?
So the Vifa TC9 has obviously proven to be a solid performer and really is very cost effective.....but i've also observed the benefit of drivers who have a rising response that naturally offsets the effects of comb filtering.
With portability logistics in play, i'd 'like' to keep them at 6ft overall length with the ability to me mounted above floor subs of say 20" or so giving an overall height of 8ft but have some concerns as to the array not being floor to ceiling? Unfounded?
Mini DSP/amps for stand alone operation?.....running advanced filters through a PC isn't an option.......but if i can't achieve maximum performance value without one then the project is fubar
Feedback, thoughts?......what would you have done differently?
Can't comment on electronics beyond suggesting a proper prosound DSP system from dbx or similar and all line array details are in Jim's comprehensive tutorial: https://audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf
GM
GM
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I've built a few array versions for my garage (2-way), and have some thoughts on practicality. Especially if you are going to move these around a lot.
Support for varied locations -
Unless you have a very large foot below the array, it may be difficult to create a stable foundation. My solution is to use threaded rod with a foot on the top and bottom, and compress the array between the floor and ceiling. This would allow you some flexibility to adjust to different ceiling heights - as long as the range of the rods are long enough. Long enough rods may also give you flexibility as to if you want to place them over a sub - or not. OK, so it may not be perfectly sealed top and bottom, but it's good 'nuf for my use. You could probably use an o-ring between the cabinet and washer to get a better seal.
Protecting the drivers during transport -
Arrays are ungainly and difficult to move around. It'll be easy to accidentally damage a driver. Consider a heavy-duty grill. I used expanded metal grate on my latest set. It looks industrial, for sure, but the drivers are protected. Install good handles - obviously.
Oh yah - clamps! I'm sure you have lots of clamps. You're going to want more 😉
Support for varied locations -
Unless you have a very large foot below the array, it may be difficult to create a stable foundation. My solution is to use threaded rod with a foot on the top and bottom, and compress the array between the floor and ceiling. This would allow you some flexibility to adjust to different ceiling heights - as long as the range of the rods are long enough. Long enough rods may also give you flexibility as to if you want to place them over a sub - or not. OK, so it may not be perfectly sealed top and bottom, but it's good 'nuf for my use. You could probably use an o-ring between the cabinet and washer to get a better seal.
Protecting the drivers during transport -
Arrays are ungainly and difficult to move around. It'll be easy to accidentally damage a driver. Consider a heavy-duty grill. I used expanded metal grate on my latest set. It looks industrial, for sure, but the drivers are protected. Install good handles - obviously.
Oh yah - clamps! I'm sure you have lots of clamps. You're going to want more 😉
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No - just el-cheapo buy-out paper tweeters - $0.90 ea. Gotta do deep discount shopping and make compromises when buying that many. Looks like they're gone now.
222604 1-1/4" Paper Cone Tweeter 6 Ohms
I like DSP delay-curved straight CBT arrays. It requires individually amplified banks of divers dedicated to a DSP channel. Of course, good amps are dirt cheap so it's easy to individually amplify each driver.
No point in trying to make the arrays perform below the room transition frequency. No advantage to placing subs near the mid-high frequency mains. Subs should be located based on modal behavior principles.
Dayton makes an 8 channel DSP that gives you enough channels to run two CBT arrays (3 channels each) and leave two channels available for centers. Then you might want to use a separate MiniDSP to manage your bass.
Tuning multiple subs
No point in trying to make the arrays perform below the room transition frequency. No advantage to placing subs near the mid-high frequency mains. Subs should be located based on modal behavior principles.
Dayton makes an 8 channel DSP that gives you enough channels to run two CBT arrays (3 channels each) and leave two channels available for centers. Then you might want to use a separate MiniDSP to manage your bass.
Tuning multiple subs
Just reading this again.... If any of your venues have drop ceilings, my goofy threaded rod idea isn't going to work 🙁
As I mentioned, the primary venue would be at home in my home theater.....only on occasion coming out for a performance..... but I’m not concerned with stabilization with subwoofer bases for mass......figuring a connection interface won’t be difficult
......and yes, subs placed for best modal performance......AT HOME......an unrealistic goal in varying portable installations.....
......and yes, subs placed for best modal performance......AT HOME......an unrealistic goal in varying portable installations.....
My latest line array journey is a modified 24 driver per side full range driver CBT as detailed at:
My New Line Array--It's a Modified CBT24
Excellent sound and results with 2.5" SB Acoustics (SB65WBAC25-4) drivers. Add a subwoofer and light DSP (I use a AV receiver and Audyssey MultEQ) and you are good to go.
Jim
My New Line Array--It's a Modified CBT24
Excellent sound and results with 2.5" SB Acoustics (SB65WBAC25-4) drivers. Add a subwoofer and light DSP (I use a AV receiver and Audyssey MultEQ) and you are good to go.
Jim
I see woofers on open baffle, but where are mids and tweeters? Did I miss something? Center to center distance? Comb?
mahem Ihave the speakers for sale that you intend to build with macintosh ec qualiser and full details of from audioxpress july 2006 if you are interested cheers Richard
Ironic that I was just about to start a thread on the same subject and saw yours so I will comment quickly.
I have been playing with a few drivers with the intent of building a line array. Of the few drivers I trialed, the Faital 3FE and the LaVoce FSF030 stood out. After open air and a couple mock up boxes my ear determined that the price diff between the Faital and LaVoce was not worth it.
At the P.E. warehouse sale I was able to get an exceptional deal on the LaVoce drivers and bought 50 of them.
I have since put 4 of them on an aluminum baffle, wired them in 2 groups for 4 ohms each and put them in a 15.5 x 9 x 3.5" box. Powering it by a Dayton DTA120 with one channel going to each group.
I can tell you that the 4 LaVoce's will handle all of the DTA's power without a hint of distortion.
With the current baffle and box setup, using minidsp (and my ear), I'm not getting much below 100hz.
Above 150hz these drivers excel at almost everything. The clarity with vocals and instruments is amazing. I can hardly wait to see what 24 of theses do.
Sorry for being so long winded, I said it would be quick.
I have been playing with a few drivers with the intent of building a line array. Of the few drivers I trialed, the Faital 3FE and the LaVoce FSF030 stood out. After open air and a couple mock up boxes my ear determined that the price diff between the Faital and LaVoce was not worth it.
At the P.E. warehouse sale I was able to get an exceptional deal on the LaVoce drivers and bought 50 of them.
I have since put 4 of them on an aluminum baffle, wired them in 2 groups for 4 ohms each and put them in a 15.5 x 9 x 3.5" box. Powering it by a Dayton DTA120 with one channel going to each group.
I can tell you that the 4 LaVoce's will handle all of the DTA's power without a hint of distortion.
With the current baffle and box setup, using minidsp (and my ear), I'm not getting much below 100hz.
Above 150hz these drivers excel at almost everything. The clarity with vocals and instruments is amazing. I can hardly wait to see what 24 of theses do.
Sorry for being so long winded, I said it would be quick.
Thanks for the reply Jim. Read your white papers years ago and built a two way array based on your work. I used budget buyout drivers as it was more of an experiment than anything else but the cost to performance ratio was still outstanding.......don’t think I could have come close with a 2way of equal value.
Followed your mod CBT from start to finish and was impresssed with your results . Using the SB driver would nearly triple the cost of this build for me so I have to weight the performance gains vs the added cost. The smaller SB driver I’m sure has better off axis response which might prove valuable in live use coverage.
I’d like everyone interested in these types of arrays to weigh in on this driver from Visaton
FRS 5 X - 8 Ohm | Visaton
The off axis response is outstanding and the efficiency is class leading. Power handling isn’t he greatest but at 2” we’re talking about 36 drivers per side so........
The even rise of 8db in the response from 1khz to 15khz is what really caught my attention given the nature of the comb filtered HF attenuation that happens in these types of arrays. What I’ve seen from other builds, this rise would offset the need for extreme DSP.
Also limited low end extension so a higher hi pass to subs would appear essential. One of the reported attributes of the larger driver arrays is the unexpected low freq performance so there’s that...
FRS 5 X - 8 Ohm | Visaton
The off axis response is outstanding and the efficiency is class leading. Power handling isn’t he greatest but at 2” we’re talking about 36 drivers per side so........
The even rise of 8db in the response from 1khz to 15khz is what really caught my attention given the nature of the comb filtered HF attenuation that happens in these types of arrays. What I’ve seen from other builds, this rise would offset the need for extreme DSP.
Also limited low end extension so a higher hi pass to subs would appear essential. One of the reported attributes of the larger driver arrays is the unexpected low freq performance so there’s that...
On this subject though, if I were planning subwoofer reinforcement from the start, the smaller drivers do become a viable option. My plans were full range for the entire bandwidth of interest (to me). Planning to use DSP from the start. Not as a cure for room problems but to manage/optimise speaker output. You can't really fix the room with DSP.
Personally I wouldn't try the sub below the array. If there was the off chance of bringing the array into a room that had larger ceilings, I'd consider the array being of the finite type. Meaning a CBT concept would likely be the better choice. It would also act more independent from the room compared to straight arrays (which needs some care for dealing with parallel planes)
Depending on room and placement options I like the bent CBT better than a straight DSP variant on this CBT application (depending on placement within the room). Plus I'd plan for using more than 2 subs.
Room + speaker must be able to work together in my humble opinion. That, for me, determines what options there are.
Personally I wouldn't try the sub below the array. If there was the off chance of bringing the array into a room that had larger ceilings, I'd consider the array being of the finite type. Meaning a CBT concept would likely be the better choice. It would also act more independent from the room compared to straight arrays (which needs some care for dealing with parallel planes)
Depending on room and placement options I like the bent CBT better than a straight DSP variant on this CBT application (depending on placement within the room). Plus I'd plan for using more than 2 subs.
Room + speaker must be able to work together in my humble opinion. That, for me, determines what options there are.
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"Originally Posted by mayhem13
To some it up, I just can't throw the baby out with the bath water if you're familiar with the expression. It's probobly best that I just simply and empirically state that I've moved on from all iterations of the line array as a best practice for home audio within typical domestic spaces. These discussions were based on curiosity of mechanical alterations of wavefronts and not intended for the improvement of full range line arrays."
What on earth happened here? In the space of an hour, you had a change of mind, posted an explanation of why, and then removed the post stating and explaining your change? You're as bad as me. ;-)
To some it up, I just can't throw the baby out with the bath water if you're familiar with the expression. It's probobly best that I just simply and empirically state that I've moved on from all iterations of the line array as a best practice for home audio within typical domestic spaces. These discussions were based on curiosity of mechanical alterations of wavefronts and not intended for the improvement of full range line arrays."
What on earth happened here? In the space of an hour, you had a change of mind, posted an explanation of why, and then removed the post stating and explaining your change? You're as bad as me. ;-)
No no, that's entirely my doing... the above quote I showed is a much earlier quote from my very long-winded thread about my arrays. I should have included the link back to that post to make it clear enough. Here it is: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-towers-25-driver-range-line-array-162.html#post4561814
But I should have remembered another part as well, that is this one:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-towers-25-driver-range-line-array-209.html#post4654062
So the answer was there already, in my thread. 😀
But I should have remembered another part as well, that is this one:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/242171-towers-25-driver-range-line-array-209.html#post4654062
So the answer was there already, in my thread. 😀
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