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Old 6th December 2012, 05:20 PM   #11
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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+1, though can't say I agree with the latter since of more importance IME is positioning the bass driver[s] at ceiling height 3rds or 5ths if the ceiling/floor are in parallel.
+1 to 2.5way is good enough for me....and the other stuff, I trust you on that

though, I would like the upper fullrange at listening height
and since the ribbon is expected to be crossed very high....
ehh...hang on, considering its OB design,maybe the ribbon could play backwards instead
and be placed anywhere behind the baffle
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Old 6th December 2012, 05:44 PM   #12
GM is offline GM  United States
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In this case, probably better to locate the 'woofer' wherever along the length of the baffle a 3rd or 5th is since the XO should be low enough to cover any increased c-t-c distance.

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Old 25th December 2012, 11:18 PM   #13
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I have been very busy over the past few weeks trying different driver configurations and have come to a few conclusions. Of course, the old YMMV certainly applies to any of my findings ..... + the fact that opinions are like noses, everybody has one

The enclosed photo is a very rough prototype of a speaker that will probably end up being my everyday speaker (the ones to the insides) .....

Click the image to open in full size.

Larger photo here.

One of the most amazing conclusions I have come to is how incredibly good the Betsy drivers are. On the larger (outside) baffles, I tried setting them up with one pair of Betsys and one pair of Visaton B200s. I had the baffles wired so that I could switch back and forth between the drivers very quickly to A / B them. The Visatons have been one of my favorite drivers for a long time now and while I thought that the Betsy drivers were very good, I really didn't expect them to compete with the B200s at four times the price. But, surprisingly, they didn't just compete but ended up being my favorite.

I also tried a setup with two Betsy drivers on each side in an MTM configuration, and while the dynamics were certainly better the sound was not as natural to my ears. I also tried the 2.5 setup and did not like it as much as a single Betsy driver. The Heil AMT driver was crossed over at 15K with a single cap in each configuration and does a superb job as a "super tweeter". The fact that it radiates front and rear (like the Betsy) makes it ideal in an OB setup.

I intentionally made the upper section of the new speaker taller than I needed to experiment with driver height ..... which in my experience (and that of a few others who have heard the speakers) is absolutely crucial with the Betsy drivers. The height of the drivers can make the difference between a "good" sound and an "insanely realistic" sound. The final configuration will have the top section about 6" shorter than in the photo.

I also plan to use the Heil AMT driver instead of the Fountek ribbon and round the corners on the top of the bass section as well as the upper section of the speaker. Since I have no serious woodworking tools, I will have a woodworking friend make the final baffle from 2" thick hardwood ..... the type and finish undecided at this point.

These speakers throw a wonderful sound stage ..... focused, wide and deep and sonically disappear as well as any speaker I have ever owned including some very nice mini-monitors.

I'm sure that the associated equipment does not hurt the sound I am getting a bit. I use some pretty nice vacuum tube amplification and the digital front end is in the $8,000.00 range at retail. I didn't pay nearly that much for it used because I am part Scottish and a cheapskate at heart .....

But the sound is pretty incredible ..... especially vocals, which just float in the middle of the room. A music loving buddy visited me for a listening session a few nights ago and thanked me for inviting him to "a live concert".

I guess the point of all of this is just how much of a bargain the Betsy drivers are. Since I have wired each test configuration to switch the high frequency driver in and out of the loop, the Betsy puts on a killer performance all by itself ..... and the addition of the Hawthorne Audio Augie 15" bass drivers and plate amps makes for an intensely musical system.

It will probably be a bit down the road, but I will post photos of the finished speaker when they are available.

Happy listening,

Randy
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Old 26th December 2012, 03:29 AM   #14
nebojsa is offline nebojsa  United States
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Hi Randy, was wondering where are you crossing Betsy? Thank you looks really good.
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Old 26th December 2012, 03:46 AM   #15
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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..... and the addition of the Hawthorne Audio Augie 15" bass drivers and plate amps makes for an intensely musical system.
in case of using woofers, I wonder if the Betsy with bigger magnet would be a better choice
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Old 26th December 2012, 11:28 AM   #16
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Hi Randy, was wondering where are you crossing Betsy? Thank you looks really good.
Hi nebojsa,

The Betsy drivers are running full range. With the Fountek ribbon (95 db efficiency) I have it crossed over at 12K. With the Heil AMT (97 to 102 db efficient depending on who you believe) I have it crossed over at 15K. With either driver, there is still a pretty significant output because of the efficiency difference between them and the Betsy. From what I have experienced, the Betsy reaches pretty high if the driver is around ear level. If it is below ear level, the top end drops off ..... at least in my system and listening room.
I have the 15" Augies crossed over at about 70 hz on the plate amplifier. My head tells me that the Betsy drivers should not go as low as they do to meet the Augie at 70 hz ..... but my ears and test CD tell me that they do .....

Best wishes,

Randy
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Old 26th December 2012, 11:31 AM   #17
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in case of using woofers, I wonder if the Betsy with bigger magnet would be a better choice
Hi tinitus,

Do you mean instead of the standard Betsy for the full range driver or instead of the Augie as a bass driver ?

Thanks,

Randy
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Old 26th December 2012, 12:32 PM   #18
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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hi, no I just meant the BetsyK, with lower Qts
even in OB, you may not need a high Qts driver when using additional woofer
but hard to say without having heard both(Betsy vs BetsyK)
though a stronger 'motor' gives improved control, it sometimes also results in more peaked top
I don't know...it was just a random thought on the subject
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Old 26th December 2012, 01:48 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
hi, no I just meant the BetsyK, with lower Qts
even in OB, you may not need a high Qts driver when using additional woofer
but hard to say without having heard both(Betsy vs BetsyK)
though a stronger 'motor' gives improved control, it sometimes also results in more peaked top
I don't know...it was just a random thought on the subject
Hi tinitus,

I presumed that is what you meant ..... just wanting to verify .....

Good question. From what I understand, there are a quite a few BetsyK drivers doing OB duty with good results. I plan to order a pair in the near future to check them out.

Best wishes,

Randy
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Old 26th December 2012, 03:46 PM   #20
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I don't know Randy, I've run all kinds of calculations through all kinds of programs and have found there is no possible way those could sound any good at all.

In all seriousness, I bet the sound is incredible. Nice work my friend!

And regarding the Betsy K vs. Betsy. I have both and the Betsy K does definitely sound "different". It is more precise throughout the entire frequency band, but at the same time, is not as forgiving of poor system matching or hot recordings. The Betsy is more laid back.
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