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Betsy drivers are REALLY good

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Since recently completing my latest speaker building project with Betsy drivers in an "MTM" configuration, I have been listening to these speakers for several hours each night spinning almost every CD in my collection.

I have also had a chance to compare the Betsys to my other open baffle speakers that use Visaton B200 drivers. The way I have both speakers set up gives me the option of running them with one or two full-range drivers and with or without the high frequency drivers.

While the Visaton drivers are certainly a bit more detailed, the Betsy drivers are every bit as "musical" ..... and are a lot "kinder" to any CD that is a little thin sounding or hot on the top end (and goodness knows that there are plenty of those) ..... ;)

While I like the added dynamics the MTM setup provides, I find myself listening more to a single driver per side with the Fountek ribbon crossed over at a very high frequency. The sound stage is huge ..... deep and wide and very coherent.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


After listening for another month or two, I will probably end up cutting off the top part of the baffle above the ribbon and just running a single Betsy per side.
The baffles are slightly tilted back and I am sure that the image will float very nicely above the shorter baffles.

As I mentioned on the Recommended Components page of my website, I don't know of a better bargain in the world of loudspeakers than the Betsy drivers. I have heard (and owned) a lot of speakers over the years and for sheer musicality they are hard to beat. With the music I primarily listen to (folk, Celtic, acoustic blues and jazz and vocals) these speakers are just about perfect.

Love those Betsy drivers ..... :)

Randy
 
I'm very tempted to try this, even though I told myself I'll do no more "budget" speakers. I have my eye on a pair of Jeff Bagby's Tritons or Contimuums, but...
How did you determine the baffle width, did you flush mount any of the drivers, and is the only crossover/filter/BSC circuit a small cap on the tweeter? I know virtually nothing about open baffle speakers other than they have a pretty impressive following. I figure I might as well try some to see if I like them.
Any other advice?
Thanks,
Mike
 
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Joined 2005
After listening for another month or two, I will probably end up cutting off the top part of the baffle above the ribbon and just running a single Betsy per side.

oh no :eek: please try it the 2.5way first
just a simple inductor in series with the low driver, thats all
both drivers should ideally have been below ribbon, but who cares if it works

or else, maybe it would be possible to cut out a piece of the baffle, and rearrange the drivers

The baffles are slightly tilted back and I am sure that the image will float very nicely above the shorter baffles.

rubbish ofcourse, but a good joke :D

but you can always try to disconnect the upper driver, and see what happens, before you regret the cut
 
I'm very tempted to try this, even though I told myself I'll do no more "budget" speakers. I have my eye on a pair of Jeff Bagby's Tritons or Contimuums, but...
How did you determine the baffle width, did you flush mount any of the drivers, and is the only crossover/filter/BSC circuit a small cap on the tweeter? I know virtually nothing about open baffle speakers other than they have a pretty impressive following. I figure I might as well try some to see if I like them.
Any other advice?
Thanks,
Mike

Hi Mike,

I just chose the baffle width "by the seat of my pants" at 16". This width has worked pretty well with other open baffle projects I have done with 8" drivers.

Yep ..... there is just a single cap on the ribbon. I have a bunch of capacitors of different values and tried several different crossover points. The ribbon is 7 ohm and the Betsy drivers are 5.9. I ended up using a 1.5 uF cap which crossd the ribbon over at about 15K. While this might sound a bit high to some folks, it is doing exactly what I want it to do ..... add some sparkle to the very high frequencies. To my ears, the Betsy drivers do just fine on every frequency except the very top end.

I am running some Hawthorne Audio Augie 15" open baffle drivers to take care of the low end.

Sounds good to me ..... :cool:

Best wishes,

Randy
 
rubbish ofcourse, but a good joke :D

but you can always try to disconnect the upper driver, and see what happens, before you regret the cut

Howdy tinitus,

I do have the baffles set up so that I can run one or both Betsy drivers with or without the ribbon and have spent quite a bit of time listening to all of the combinations. I could make an argument for any of the combos, but the final decision will be based on what floats my boat with the music that I listen to most.

Truthfully, the main reason I built the Betsy baffles was to have a pair of OB speakers that sound a lot different than the Visaton baffles ..... and they do for a fact. I am well pleased with both speakers ..... :)

Happy listening,

Randy
 
something I have done a while ago with great success
Audio Pages: System two - update
I like Betsy too...

Reminds me of the BOFU with piezo horn MTM OB I cobbled together as a proof of concept I posted about ages ago when the BOFU craze was just starting, though mine was a tapered flat baffle floorstander after Carver and I butted the BOFUs together and nestled the square flanged horn in the lee of the junction to minimize c-t-c spacing due to the high HF XO point.

The low passed lower BOFU was the whizzerless 'woofer' version that I added some mass to both damp it/lower Fs a bit and did the $0.98 tweak to the whizzer along with kneading it to lower its Q.

The results were far better than a then < $100 total cost speaker had a right to be, but times being what they were/are for me, I never built another one and the baffle is now part of a house wall repair.

GM
 
Ex-Moderator R.I.P.
Joined 2005
+1, though can't say I agree with the latter since of more importance IME is positioning the bass driver at ceiling height 3rds or 5ths if the ceiling/floor are in parallel.


+1 to 2.5way is good enough for me....and the other stuff, I trust you on that

though, I would like the upper fullrange at listening height
and since the ribbon is expected to be crossed very high....
ehh...hang on, considering its OB design,maybe the ribbon could play backwards instead
and be placed anywhere behind the baffle :scratch2:
 
I have been very busy over the past few weeks trying different driver configurations and have come to a few conclusions. Of course, the old YMMV certainly applies to any of my findings ..... + the fact that opinions are like noses, everybody has one ;)

The enclosed photo is a very rough prototype of a speaker that will probably end up being my everyday speaker (the ones to the insides) .....

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


Larger photo here.

One of the most amazing conclusions I have come to is how incredibly good the Betsy drivers are. On the larger (outside) baffles, I tried setting them up with one pair of Betsys and one pair of Visaton B200s. I had the baffles wired so that I could switch back and forth between the drivers very quickly to A / B them. The Visatons have been one of my favorite drivers for a long time now and while I thought that the Betsy drivers were very good, I really didn't expect them to compete with the B200s at four times the price. But, surprisingly, they didn't just compete but ended up being my favorite.

I also tried a setup with two Betsy drivers on each side in an MTM configuration, and while the dynamics were certainly better the sound was not as natural to my ears. I also tried the 2.5 setup and did not like it as much as a single Betsy driver. The Heil AMT driver was crossed over at 15K with a single cap in each configuration and does a superb job as a "super tweeter". The fact that it radiates front and rear (like the Betsy) makes it ideal in an OB setup.

I intentionally made the upper section of the new speaker taller than I needed to experiment with driver height ..... which in my experience (and that of a few others who have heard the speakers) is absolutely crucial with the Betsy drivers. The height of the drivers can make the difference between a "good" sound and an "insanely realistic" sound. The final configuration will have the top section about 6" shorter than in the photo.

I also plan to use the Heil AMT driver instead of the Fountek ribbon and round the corners on the top of the bass section as well as the upper section of the speaker. Since I have no serious woodworking tools, I will have a woodworking friend make the final baffle from 2" thick hardwood ..... the type and finish undecided at this point.

These speakers throw a wonderful sound stage ..... focused, wide and deep and sonically disappear as well as any speaker I have ever owned including some very nice mini-monitors.

I'm sure that the associated equipment does not hurt the sound I am getting a bit. I use some pretty nice vacuum tube amplification and the digital front end is in the $8,000.00 range at retail. I didn't pay nearly that much for it used because I am part Scottish and a cheapskate at heart ..... :D

But the sound is pretty incredible ..... especially vocals, which just float in the middle of the room. A music loving buddy visited me for a listening session a few nights ago and thanked me for inviting him to "a live concert".

I guess the point of all of this is just how much of a bargain the Betsy drivers are. Since I have wired each test configuration to switch the high frequency driver in and out of the loop, the Betsy puts on a killer performance all by itself ..... and the addition of the Hawthorne Audio Augie 15" bass drivers and plate amps makes for an intensely musical system.

It will probably be a bit down the road, but I will post photos of the finished speaker when they are available.

Happy listening,

Randy
 
Hi Randy, was wondering where are you crossing Betsy? Thank you looks really good.

Hi nebojsa,

The Betsy drivers are running full range. With the Fountek ribbon (95 db efficiency) I have it crossed over at 12K. With the Heil AMT (97 to 102 db efficient depending on who you believe) I have it crossed over at 15K. With either driver, there is still a pretty significant output because of the efficiency difference between them and the Betsy. From what I have experienced, the Betsy reaches pretty high if the driver is around ear level. If it is below ear level, the top end drops off ..... at least in my system and listening room.
I have the 15" Augies crossed over at about 70 hz on the plate amplifier. My head tells me that the Betsy drivers should not go as low as they do to meet the Augie at 70 hz ..... but my ears and test CD tell me that they do ..... :D

Best wishes,

Randy
 
Ex-Moderator R.I.P.
Joined 2005
hi, no I just meant the BetsyK, with lower Qts
even in OB, you may not need a high Qts driver when using additional woofer
but hard to say without having heard both(Betsy vs BetsyK)
though a stronger 'motor' gives improved control, it sometimes also results in more peaked top
I don't know...it was just a random thought on the subject
 
hi, no I just meant the BetsyK, with lower Qts
even in OB, you may not need a high Qts driver when using additional woofer
but hard to say without having heard both(Betsy vs BetsyK)
though a stronger 'motor' gives improved control, it sometimes also results in more peaked top
I don't know...it was just a random thought on the subject

Hi tinitus,

I presumed that is what you meant ..... just wanting to verify ..... ;)

Good question. From what I understand, there are a quite a few BetsyK drivers doing OB duty with good results. I plan to order a pair in the near future to check them out.

Best wishes,

Randy
 
I don't know Randy, I've run all kinds of calculations through all kinds of programs and have found there is no possible way those could sound any good at all. :D

In all seriousness, I bet the sound is incredible. Nice work my friend!

And regarding the Betsy K vs. Betsy. I have both and the Betsy K does definitely sound "different". It is more precise throughout the entire frequency band, but at the same time, is not as forgiving of poor system matching or hot recordings. The Betsy is more laid back.
 
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