Remote control kits

[Mfly]

Guys, I understand the kit did not meet your expectations, and I know it's a bummer when something doesn't work as you expect it to. But this type of circuit behaves differently under different circumstances. In some instances it appears to be very sensitive to parasitic capacitance, as with you. As I understand from previous posts, Mikkel has not encountered this problem like this before.
On his website, he never promises 100% attenuation or no clicks, because in his applications this clearly wasn't an issue, as for many other people. He promises 64 dB of attenuation, or more if you use larger steps. With this type of circuit, 100% attenuation can only be reached by full muting (relay). If you want more without a muting relay, it is possible to recalculate your resistors with for example larger steps.
However some of you deem it neccesary to portrait him in a very negative way, even if he is clearly trying to help with the issue. I was just hoping we could constructively search for a solution.

Originally Posted by hags

I keep hearing this, are you telling me that the Levinsons, Krells, Pass Labs etc. of the world sell products that click and pop? I've listened to a few of those designs and have not heard any such nonsense.

These just aren't comparable situations. Companies like that have dedicated designers working on their products. And there the implementation is very specific, just one situation. Furthermore, you pay thousands of dollars for their equipment because of this. Mikkel has a normal job and on the side he offers people some DIY kits he has designed. I believe you cannot expect Mikkel to plan in advance for every implementation of his kit, which costs a fraction of a professional implementation. That's just deductive fallacy.

But nevermind, onto possible solutions:

This forum describes the same circuit and forum post 71 and further they discuss some possible solutions for the clicks:

-Fixed L-pad after the last relay
-Different timing (possibly with dual coil relais)

Constant impedance relay-resistor logarithmic attenuator

Together with the remarks on Pinkfish, maybe Mikkel could look into the timing of the switching...

Originally Posted by Renron

P.S.S. The remote function work well as does the display, reducing the input resistor below 60K gave me No music at -63dB, but the steps we out of sink. ie: -32 was louder than -28. My input resistor is now 100K.

Did you recalculate the other resistors as well, or only changed the input resistor?

[hags]

Originally Posted by Mfly

Guys, I understand the kit did not meet your expectations, and I know it's a bummer when something doesn't work as you expect it to. But this type of circuit behaves differently under different circumstances. In some instances it appears to be very sensitive to parasitic capacitance, as with you. As I understand from previous posts, Mikkel has not encountered this problem like this before.
On his website, he never promises 100% attenuation or no clicks, because in his applications this clearly wasn't an issue, as for many other people. He promises 64 dB of attenuation, or more if you use larger steps. With this type of circuit, 100% attenuation can only be reached by full muting (relay). If you want more without a muting relay, it is possible to recalculate your resistors with for example larger steps.
However some of you deem it neccesary to portrait him in a very negative way, even if he is clearly trying to help with the issue. I was just hoping we could constructively search for a solution.



These just aren't comparable situations. Companies like that have dedicated designers working on their products. And there the implementation is very specific, just one situation. Furthermore, you pay thousands of dollars for their equipment because of this. Mikkel has a normal job and on the side he offers people some DIY kits he has designed. I believe you cannot expect Mikkel to plan in advance for every implementation of his kit, which costs a fraction of a professional implementation. That's just deductive fallacy.

But nevermind, onto possible solutions:

This forum describes the same circuit and forum post 71 and further they discuss some possible solutions for the clicks:

-Fixed L-pad after the last relay
-Different timing (possibly with dual coil relais)

Constant impedance relay-resistor logarithmic attenuator

Together with the remarks on Pinkfish, maybe Mikkel could look into the timing of the switching...




Did you recalculate the other resistors as well, or only changed the input resistor?

As far as I know it's been implemented as a volume control, it is designed as a 64 position attenuator, no?

[yairf]

Mikkel
Please check my PM.
I'm having great difficulties with the Rem-1 boards and I need your help to resolve this,
Thanks
Yair

[Renron]

Mfly,
I've only tried changing out the input resistor, I have a vary limited experience with electronics so I try not to change things I don't understand.

Personally I don't mind not going to 0 volume at -64dB, mine is VERY quiet at that setting, like a whisper. OK by me.

My only complaint is the clicks at volume changes. I guess I should have know about relay devices causing clicks, but I'm an admitted noob.

I have never intended to dis or Bash Mikkel or his equipment / kits. I've only tried to share my experiences with others who may be considering buying this kit and are not aware of the possible clicks.

MIkkel,
Thank you for looking into the issues that we have encountered with your kit.
By building a tube preamp to test your Vol1 kit shows your professionalism and commitment to the quality of your kits. Thank you.
I hope you are able to duplicate our issues in your test lab.

We appreciate that you are checking this forum / thread more often, again showing that you really DO care about customer service. I doubt you make much $$$ (if anything) from your kits, so it's a service to those of us who do not have the talent to design our own.

Don't take any of our post personally Mikkel, I think we all like you.

Thanks,
Ron

[mcs]

Originally Posted by Mfly

If you search around somewhat, it seems that in other implementations (for instance that of Jos van Eijndhoven's attenuator), the popping noise can be reduced to almost zero, by carefull timing of the relais switching (switching one relay of before the switching the next). But the popping noise is still inherent to relais based attenuators and seem to remain in certain situations.

I do this already in some software versions. The problem is that in this case (attenuator/Aikido), there's noise anyway...

-Fixed L-pad after the last relay
-Different timing (possibly with dual coil relais)

The first option is easy to try, so I will have a look at that. I will also try making an "ultra slow" software version, so I can hopefully hear what relays cause the problem. Another option to try is the order of the different sections, which has been suggested also. But this is a bit difficult to test...

Time is a bit of a problem right now, but I hope I'll have some time during the weekend.

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen

[Renron]

Thank you Mikkel,
We appreciate you trying to help us, all of us.

Ron

[piero7]

MIkkel, also the other versions of your attenuator can not reach volume zero?

[mcs]

Originally Posted by piero7

MIkkel, also the other versions of your attenuator can not reach volume zero?

The RelVol1 and RelVol3 are the same circuit. The RelVol2 and ChipVol1 can do full muting, as they are both series attenuators where the first step is ground.

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen

[Renron]

Originally Posted by mcs

The RelVol1 and RelVol3 are the same circuit. The RelVol2 and ChipVol1 can do full muting, as they are both series attenuators where the first step is ground.

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen

Mikkel,
Can the VolControl3 board and it's LCD display be used with the ChipVol1?
Perhaps there is no need to reinvent the wheel ? Just change the tire?

Ron

[mcs]

Originally Posted by Renron

Mikkel,
Can the VolControl3 board and it's LCD display be used with the ChipVol1?

Yes.

Best regards,

Mikkel C. Simonsen