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Old 13th January 2013, 07:47 AM   #51
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The current version 2 has a 4mm-wide area at the edge of the board so the ground plane on that side is not completely split. It's on the opposite side to the op amp power entry point.

I think 4 planes is not necessary, but I'd like to see better use of the ground planes with the 2 layer.

Creating separate L/R power inputs will allow a larger area of ground in the centre of the board (instead of the small connecting area at one side). If you do this and add more ground plane vias between the two sides of the board then the grounding should be improved. Take a look at this board from AMB's site - see all the vias ?

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Old 13th January 2013, 09:18 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post

I dont think there is any danger of me copying your work...
You are welcome!
Please keep the DIYINHK logo and add the modifiy by yourname line!
I am happy to see someone done customization on my design
Do you have any DAC PCB design before? I am happy if you can share with us
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Old 13th January 2013, 09:24 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by diyinhk View Post
You are welcome!
Please keep the DIYINHK logo and add the modifiy by yourname line!
I am happy to see someone done customization on my design
Do you have any DAC PCB design before? I am happy if you can share with us
他不尊重你的設計。他不希望將其複製。
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Old 13th January 2013, 06:10 PM   #54
lauret is offline lauret  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KlipschKid View Post
他不尊重你的設計。他不希望將其複製。
Quote:
Originally Posted by Google Translate
He does not respect your design. He does not want to copy.
In other words, qusp was being sarcastic.
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Old 14th January 2013, 01:20 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by lauret View Post
In other words, qusp was being sarcastic.
Are you sure ? I've picked up on considerable levels of disdain, even contempt. Sorry Qusp, but it's getting old, fast.

Previously it was said that the power lines run under the analogue output lines. To be clear, they run under the op amps themselves and there are 8 signal resistors running perpendicular to the power lines on the other side of the board. Perpendicular is not a problem, and there are ways to mitigate even this for the perfectionists out there. There are no signal traces crossing the lines, and certainly none paralleling.

Last edited by KlipschKid; 14th January 2013 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 14th January 2013, 01:38 AM   #56
glt is offline glt  United States
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Originally Posted by lauret View Post
In other words, qusp was being sarcastic.
So was he :-)
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Old 14th January 2013, 01:45 AM   #57
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So was he :-)
He = Diyinhk ? That wouldn't surprise me at all. If you give no respect you get no respect.

Last edited by KlipschKid; 14th January 2013 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 15th January 2013, 05:45 AM   #58
glt is offline glt  United States
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Suggestion for next versions:

Move clock power to the other side so that there is no need for the power line (currently the ferrite) to cross-over the clock input line.
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Old 15th January 2013, 06:26 PM   #59
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KlipschKid View Post
Are you sure ? I've picked up on considerable levels of disdain, even contempt. Sorry Qusp, but it's getting old, fast.

Previously it was said that the power lines run under the analogue output lines. To be clear, they run under the op amps themselves and there are 8 signal resistors running perpendicular to the power lines on the other side of the board. Perpendicular is not a problem, and there are ways to mitigate even this for the perfectionists out there. There are no signal traces crossing the lines, and certainly none paralleling.
I made a suggestion you seem to be agreeing with, I made it without being insulting, I got sarcasm in return. I wonder how many of the suggestions i've made will be on the new PCB, I see one or 2 i've made already on the update. i've got nothing but sarcasm in return from the beginning, i'm not sure how much help is due at this point, but here I go

There will be a new set of problems with a 4 layer prototype that you will pay for, it will be expensive. I agree with you, it would be better to fix the 2 layer design. 4 layers is great, but thinking it will solve all of your problems when the problems on 2 layers do not seem to be understood is foolhardy and the customers are paying for it.


the problem is not just the signal and IV resistors (the most critical resistors on the board) crossing over a massive power trace. Being perpendicular helps avoid crosstalk, but if it can be avoided it should be and its not the issue under discussion (it can be fixed by supplying the opamps from inputs next to each one, regs arent onboard, why have the inputs be destructive?) the problem is the return path is completely blocked but for a tiny gap on one side... twice....

a signal current and its return currents like to flow near each other, if a signal trace is routed on top of a 2 layer PCB with a ground plane underneath, the return likes to flow underneath the signal path and that includes the resistors. the return impedance is as important as the signal impedance, they are peas in a pod. thinking of signal as somehow separate from ground is incorrect and the sooner you get past that, the better.

then there is this misunderstanding that the opamps are analogue and the dac is digital, if that wasnt just an excuse...

this is all from the es9008 app note page the schematic was mostly lifted from

Quote:
The most important for DAC performance is the ground plane,
it should be as solid as possible with as few traces routed through the ground plane as possible.
Quote:
Any traces
that are routed through the ground plane and block the “line of sight” from the DAC output to the opamp
output stage significantly degrades the output THD.
Quote:
The ground plane should be
unobstructed from the DAC outputs to the output amplifier stage.
Quote:
the ground plane looking back towards the DAC should not be blocked.
Avoid routing on the ground plane near the dac outputs
Quote:
The ground plane may be divided underneath the DAC as shown. The top side is kept clear from traces to provide a solid AVCC connection from the flooded plane
do you think it might be important to avoid cutting the ground plane/blocking the return currents?

Quote:
1.) Make the ground plane as solid as possible. Try to keep all ground connections as short as possible.
Every ground connection should have its own via, do not share vias if possible.
2.) Keep opamp feedback paths as close as possible to the opamp.
3.) Ensure every opamp and DAC has decoupling capacitance on its power supply right next to the power
supply pins.
4.) The audio path between the DAC and the opamp stage should be kept as short and clean as possible.
5.) The audio path after the opamps is not as critical.
6.) Try to keep the digital circuitry away from the analog circuitry.

Last edited by qusp; 15th January 2013 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 15th January 2013, 07:33 PM   #60
glt is offline glt  United States
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Qusp, your positive contributions are always appreciated.

I can see that diyinhk has replicated the layout recommendation in p.6 of the same document you quoted. There the input signal also crosses the "massive" power lines at a right angle.

Perhaps what you are proposing is an optimization to what ESS is recommending?

Do I not read the recommended layout from ESS right?
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