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Old 17th February 2013, 05:56 AM   #471
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Thanks, i think it is the Virgo 2 you like, the one tested in Sterophile 1996.
I think it was 16 or 17 pages. The longest review ever. What really blew Michael Fremer away was the soundstage. They totally disapperaed.
I tell you a secret : the design of the crossover took less then a day, i would say the critical adjustments took lesss then an hour. Neither where the parts in the crossover particular big or expensive. The drivers where good quality but nothing special, just very well designed. This design proved for me conclusively " mind over matter".

Last edited by Joachim Gerhard; 17th February 2013 at 06:05 AM.
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Old 17th February 2013, 06:01 AM   #472
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In later days i got several Virgos back that had being "tuned" with expensive caps and such. They came back because the people where ultimatively not happy any more.
The " magic" was gone. the irony is that this was simple german engineering : solve the problem, make it reliable, make it affordable, make it look as simple as posible.
Less is more, ruduced to the max.
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Old 17th February 2013, 06:27 AM   #473
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I would like to talk a bit more about the sound i get. As i told you the sound is light and fast but also very natural. Male voices have good chest tone and female voices have excellent resolved silbilance without spit.
The sound is on the light and airy side but also liquid and low in fatique.
The woofer is not inexpensive but so are the Iluminators and Excells of this world.
What is outstanding are the extended bandwidth and the class leading low distortion.
The bandwidth makes alignments possible that you can not do with less extention.
For example low order crossovers like mine or Jeff Bagbys linear phase variant.
When you like paper cones it does not come better. Some may prefer metal, ceramic etc, but that is another story. Sure enough you have to stop them ringing.
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Old 17th February 2013, 06:36 AM   #474
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I want to talk about the tweeter. I have a lot of experience with ring radiators. My old company Audio Physic used them from the beginning of their inception.
That was also the time where higher sampling rates got common and also SACD came about. So the extention over 20kHz came handy to explore the new media. The guess is out if we can hear so far up but they sounded more detailed then usual.
After a while we got a bit tyred of them though. One problem was the really poor mechanical construction from cheep plastic. That changed when the Scan Speaks came out but up goes the price 10 fold. So what we did was substituting the plastic frontplate with one of metal. A band aid i think in retrospect.
Measuring and listening further we found other problems : beaming and high second harmonic. Third was superbly low though.
Fixing the tweeters rigidly in the baffle reduced the problems but the necessarry complication was expensive and hard to control in manufacturing so we have plastic junk
in expensive clothes.
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Old 17th February 2013, 06:40 AM   #475
_henry_ is offline _henry_  Australia
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joachim,

thank you for the straight forward opinion and valuable insights, its great to get to know background story of a succesful product.

cheers
henry
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Old 17th February 2013, 06:47 AM   #476
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The SB is now a new aproach that brings out the best in ring radiators and solves most problems. Lets talk about the beaming. Ulrik made a wise choise and did a small difuse field EQ. That is the slight lift with a center of aprox. 15kHz.
Together with the off axis peformance that gives more treble energy into the room in the higher reaches. You can also use this property to adjust the treble to talste when you angle the speakers slightly inwards or outwards. This response peak is very soft and very high up so it does not add any spittyness i can perseive.
I prefer this much over the beaming that some ring radiators have.
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Old 17th February 2013, 07:09 AM   #477
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The membrane is of a very high quality weave and has a suplle, slightly sticky coating.
When you scratch it with a finger nail the sound is very crispy and clear.
When you play music over the tweeter you can here a lot of fine details, very similar to a good ribbon. When i compare the sound to the mighty RAAL i would say the RAAL sounds like a highly polished mirror and the SB has a very slight silkiness. Some may even prefer the SB because it is very pleasing to the ear without loosing any detail. It sure is imensly musical, strings and plugged instruments stand claer and sharp in the room. I am certain that it will sound even better after some burn in and i simply used medium quality PP caps so there is some tuning potential with the parts choices in the crossover.
I think to use a strong ferrite magnet is a good choice here. Neodym is skyrocketing at the moment so the SB is very attractive prices. I have not heard a better soft dome, ring radiator or else.
Again there are other options besides ribbons, Beryllium, Ceramic and Diamond come to mind. So far i did not hear a diamond that is my taste. They sound dull to me although very low in distortion.
Different price class, different sound.
I have a lot of experience with the Scan Beryllium and think it is good but again there is some loss of "life". On the other hand distortion is superbly low so low distortion in the treble may come with the impression of less sparcle.
I had the same feeling when i first heard the Mundorf foil coils.
Maybe we need better electronics or better recordings to apreaciate that kind of excellence.

Last edited by Joachim Gerhard; 17th February 2013 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 17th February 2013, 11:47 AM   #478
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I switched to vinlyl. I also closed the tunnels and filtered the Sotori Monitors softly with 6dB octave under 80Hz. I connected my active dipole subs, so this is a little unfair against CD. I also must admit that i do not have much experience with high resolution digital.
The best i heard by far was an active system with the big TAD speakers. Huge Pass amps.
That where 24Bit, super high sampling rate master tapes played over a Microsonic Pacifics DA converter that was at least 50cm wide and 20cm high. I also heard the huge Mitsubishi Digital Master Recorder in the Rainbow Studio in Oslo. I know it can be done but not at home at this point in time i am afraid.
The best privat digital i heard in the home of a friend who is also a graet speaker designer was a heavy modified Linn Klimax Streamer.
The modifications where mainly mechenical like soldering all movable contacts, Power Filtering, vibration reduction and such. In this way commercial digital is not better then analog. So far for perfect sound forever.
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Old 21st February 2013, 04:41 AM   #479
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Default suspense

So? What's the verdict? How's the sound with vinyl?
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Old 21st February 2013, 11:20 PM   #480
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Joachim G: Today my postman ringed the doorbell and there he stood with that LCR-meter you linked to earlier in the thread

Very nice build quality contra price and best off all, it's working better then expected and also have illuminated display

I tested it with various coils in my "DIY"-box and capacitors (tritecs, foil, air, audyn, mcap) and was spot on every time. Time will tell, but i think this is a winner for us on a budget.

So just wanna thank you for the tip. Been looking for a long time...

Next is Satori tweeters

Last edited by Max Martin; 21st February 2013 at 11:22 PM.
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