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Old 27th December 2012, 08:00 PM   #301
brianco is offline brianco  Ireland
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Location: Scottish Borders - Kelso; on the famous Tweed River!
Is the glass of red [on top right shelf] a room tuning device?

Hope you all had a good Christmas......and that 2013 brings all success!

B
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:03 PM   #302
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Yes, that is a rather young but drinkable Bordeaux. I can not afford any old one at the moment. Success we will have in one way or the other.
Happy fishing, Brian.

Last edited by Joachim Gerhard; 27th December 2012 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:07 PM   #303
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....
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Old 27th December 2012, 08:28 PM   #304
brianco is offline brianco  Ireland
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Location: Scottish Borders - Kelso; on the famous Tweed River!
....am pleased about that! Was afraid that far Eastern underground philosophies had been adopted!!!!!!

I bought some of this in a French supermarket a few months ago. Not the best but about Euro 10 per bottle and much better than same price in UK.
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Old 27th December 2012, 09:21 PM   #305
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Watching with great interest. Thanks for sharing your expertise here, Joachim. There is a lot of good general speaker theory in this thread, among the particulars of this design.

btw: jeffb's Satori kit over at Meniscus will be available shortly. They say they are just waiting for the cabinet drawings to be completed.

Troels did a study about stepped baffles:
Stepped Baffle Study
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Old 27th December 2012, 09:27 PM   #306
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Yes, wines from France are quite affordable in Germany now. Used to drink wines from Italy a lot but the prices went crazy.
Richi, thanks for that link.
I can already tell you that we need a chamfer in this design. I measured without and with a "fake" chamfer from a metal piece. Off axis it gets even worse.
Will post pictures and measurements later. I do a little break now.
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Old 27th December 2012, 09:34 PM   #307
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I am sipping on this one with my wife......
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Old 27th December 2012, 10:37 PM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim Gerhard View Post
Yes, they are very wide band and that gives a lot of options.
I mentioned before that i will try 2, maybe 3 varieties.
One will be an L/R4 for reference and because it is well established.
The only crossover that is really linear phase is first order but as you say a good approximation can be arrived at with steeper crossovers.
You roll off the tweeter 3rd order and the woofer shallower. There is also the other option to roll the woofer with a higher order Bessel and the tweeter with first order.
I think that was done by Spica. If you accept small frequency response ripples there is a second order option. I think i have seen that on the Music and Design web page.
I have also experimented with inverting the tweeter or the woofer. That also gave some interesting designs. When we go active there is the delay derived crossover or with DSP we have another plethora of possibilities but i would like to stay passive here.
I even thing that a 3rd order Butterworth is not that bad because it does not have a drop in sound power in the crossover region that the LR/4 has.
A problem with phase linear crossovers can be considerably lobing so i am very intested in your measurements, also how they look vertically.
Yes, John Bau made the Spica TC50 using a 4th order Bessel on the woofer and 1st order on the tweeter with an aggressive slope in the cabinet. The problem is that crossover scheme is really tough on a tweeter. I like to give them a little more protection than that, as I am sure you do as well.

And yes, I am very familiar with John K. and the Music and Design website. John and I have discussed these topologies for years and worked together on several design programs as well. He's a really brilliant guy.

Of course, as you know, when you design these crossovers the phase is determined by the final acoustic response of the driver and crossover combined and not just by the circuit itself. So when I talk about the tweeter rolling off 3rd order it has to include the tweeter's natural roll-off too. In reality, below about 600Hz it is rolling off 4th order, but this is far enough out to not impact the crossover behavior too much.

Here's a few measurements you might find interesting. I will probably post a thread on the project on the Meniscus forum soon that will go into more detail.

Here's the frequency response of my kairos speaker on the design axis at one meter in my family room , so it won't look like an anechoic response, but I think you will get the idea.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the actual measured phase response (green line) as picked up by the mic at one meter. It isn't transient pefect, but it approximates it fairly well and still offer decent tweeter protection.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the actual measured distortion above 100hz for the system. It is remarkably low - just that little hic-up at 1200 Hz from the woofer's edge resonance, but these are still excellent results.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's another pic. Only this one shows the old one-piece face plate on the tweeter, but it gives a good idea of the speaker's look.

Click the image to open in full size.

You mentioned the lobing. Of course, with any two driver speaker there will be lobing of some kind, but in this case it is fairly benign because the main null is aimed toward the floor, and another at the ceiling, the window on axis is pretty wide and well-behaved.

It's nice being able to discuss things like phase response with someone who follows my thinking.

Jeff B.
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Old 27th December 2012, 10:48 PM   #309
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You found a very good compromise and i salute you on this.
Would be cool if one day we could compare our efforts ( when i am ready, you are faster then me ) in my or your listening room.

Last edited by Joachim Gerhard; 27th December 2012 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 27th December 2012, 10:50 PM   #310
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I would like to see the Step Response you got.
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