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Old 23rd December 2012, 09:28 PM   #291
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Thx for valuable info Joachim. Didn't know that. I have seen those models before but didn't know the background with all this ideas.

I got the idea of sand a day at the boxing gym when i hit the bag really hard without gloves and the same week I tested to fill my empty pipes in my stereo bench with sand and i got really excited. Then I started to read more and more in various Hifi magazines that many speakers have a empty compartment in the bottom (floorstanders) ok, mass gets higher but i don't think it's help a crappy box to become suddenly "hifi".

One thing I've always wanted to test is to have a separate compartment for the x-over and when x-over tweaking is over, -fill it up with sand also. Have you tested this? That have to lower microfoni to a very low level.

Have you seen Albert Von Schweikert triple wall?
A Whitepaper: The Audibility Of Cabinet Panel Resonances and Pat. Pend. Method Of Reduction Of Audible Coloration - Spotlight - Dagogo
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Old 24th December 2012, 01:21 AM   #292
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I never brought commercial speakers to the market that have the crossover being cast or put in sand.
In separate compartments, yes, outside the box when testing the prototype, yes.
The main reason is that i want the crossover repairable. From the 10.000nds speakers i sold world wide very few came back with destroyed crossovers but sometimes it happened. The most bad example was a Virgo where the woofer cones had started burning and some parts of the crossover had gotten so hot that they desoldered themselves. I found that the customer had thrown a big party in a huge barn and had used one of the biggest Krell amps for hours.
The interesting thing is that i did not discuss this casting option much with other designers over the 30 years that i am a professional. The only longer communication was with John De´Vore. He told me that he could here differences but after tuning both types of crossovers he could make them sound more or less the same so he has given up on casting. Recently i am talking a lot to Michael Boerresen, but that is more how to make passive parts more compact and rigid.
This 3 wall sandwich also makes sense to me. There are many ways to Rome.

Last edited by Joachim Gerhard; 24th December 2012 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 26th December 2012, 04:52 AM   #293
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During the next two days i will make the speakers work and present a crossover.
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Old 26th December 2012, 06:48 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Joachim Gerhard View Post
During the next two days i will make the speakers work and present a crossover.
Joachim,

I am interested to see what you come up with. I received a set of Satori drivers last January and designed a speaker that was time and phase accurate with very flat frequency response. I showed the speaker at a DIY show in April and then at the MWAF in Dayton in July, but I had to wait on the new tweeter faceplate before I could release the kit. We will have the kit up very soon at Meniscus.

I am very pleased with this speaker and it is both one of the best measuring and sounding speakers I have worked with in a long long time. Within its bandwidth it has nearly transient perfect response. I have called the speaker the "Kairos", an ancient Greek word that means, among other things, "perfect timing". Here's a pic of final design.

Jeff Bagby

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Old 26th December 2012, 06:56 PM   #295
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That looks very good !
Would you like to share the crossover schematic ?
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Old 26th December 2012, 07:30 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Joachim Gerhard View Post
That looks very good !
Would you like to share the crossover schematic ?
I designed it as a commercial kit for Meniscus, so I can't release the crossover publicly, it's part of the kit. I used a self-derived asymmetrical transient perfect crossover - where the tweeter is rolling off 3rd order, the woofer shallower, and the delay in the cabinet helps achieve a summation that is still flat and nearly perfectly minimum phase. I have expermented with computer models of this type of system for several years, but the Satori drivers gave me the necessary wide flat bandwidth to pull it off in real loudspeaker.

I may post some measurements later though.

I found these drivers exceptionally nice to work with - very clean and well-behaved, and easy to achieve target response curves with.
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Old 26th December 2012, 11:46 PM   #297
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Yes, they are very wide band and that gives a lot of options.
I mentioned before that i will try 2, maybe 3 varieties.
One will be an L/R4 for reference and because it is well established.
The only crossover that is really linear phase is first order but as you say a good approximation can be arrived at with steeper crossovers.
You roll off the tweeter 3rd order and the woofer shallower. There is also the other option to roll the woofer with a higher order Bessel and the tweeter with first order.
I think that was done by Spica. If you accept small frequency response ripples there is a second order option. I think i have seen that on the Music and Design web page.
I have also experimented with inverting the tweeter or the woofer. That also gave some interesting designs. When we go active there is the delay derived crossover or with DSP we have another plethora of possibilities but i would like to stay passive here.
I even thing that a 3rd order Butterworth is not that bad because it does not have a drop in sound power in the crossover region that the LR/4 has.
A problem with phase linear crossovers can be considerably lobing so i am very intested in your measurements, also how they look vertically.
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Old 27th December 2012, 12:26 AM   #298
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Here Göran has made some detailed measurements on the Satori mid-woofer :www.audioexcite.com SB Acoustics “Satori” MW16P-4
I find it quite amazing that the distortion profile does not change much over level.
The graphs at 85dB and 95dB look very similar.
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Old 27th December 2012, 05:44 PM   #299
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I have now build the test cabinets and have mounted the woofer and tweeter.
So far without sinking then in and without rounding or chamfering the edges.
I will measure them this way to find out what that does to the frequency response. I will then design a first crossover.
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Old 27th December 2012, 06:49 PM   #300
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Here is a picture of the measurement setup.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sm setup.jpg (542.6 KB, 922 views)
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