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Old 10th October 2012, 06:01 PM   #141
cotdt is offline cotdt  United States
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This is great work! I am keeping up with high interest. Having used the designer's previous driver, the Scanspeak Revelator, I am concerned about the 1.3kHz midrange dip. The Revelators are lacking in clarity at the frequency of the dip, compared to Seas Excels, Peerless HDS, or the midrange of a smaller 4" driver. It's not muddy, but it's a bit dark sounding.

But the Revelators had a distortion bump at that 1.3kHz dip, and the Satori does not. So it will be interesting to see how the Satori sounds subjectively compared to the other high-end drivers.

The designer of the Revelator and Satori said that while the dip can be suppressed with stiffer surrounds, it's not caused by the surrounds. That dip (with its corresponding impedance blip) is caused by the cone transitioning from pistonic behavior to decoupled in the center at higher frequency.
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Old 10th October 2012, 06:27 PM   #142
gornir is offline gornir  Sweden
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Originally Posted by Joachim Gerhard View Post
I can get you some.
I send you a PM!

Do you know if the 4ohm version in the future will be available to the public?

I guess so since you are constructing a kit for them.

/Göran
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Old 10th October 2012, 06:42 PM   #143
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cotdt, at that frequency everything comes together. The highest diameter is at the cone edge and there the breakup starts too. Metal or ceramic cone drivers have an advantage there. Nevertheless a well designed paper cone has advantages too. One is low mass that leads to better efficiency, the other extended range without horrible breakup.
I got some 4 ohms because that way i may not need a big resistor before the tweeter.
I do not know if they make that unit available over the usual distributors but they can make them.
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Old 10th October 2012, 10:13 PM   #144
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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What I really want to know is if they will be cleaner than my ER18RNX drivers to my ears. The Seas requires a larger box and is not without flaws, but is the best all around woofer I have used. The HDS and Usher need larger boxes than I like. At three times the cost, I hope for more than a slightly smaller box, but this is in the range where big bucks provide small improvements. There is nothing really wrong with the 17NRX for a third of the price! That leaves me torn between stepping up to the big boys game, or a set of the lowly SB's that may be better than I can hear anyway. (I never build the same speaker twice)

Have not picked a tweeter for my next project. Eliminated quite a few.
I have been playing with the SB29RDC. It is quite good and easy to use, but so far not the match for the 27TBFC in my last build. I have only tested it on an active crossover with no compensation, so judgement is not final. I have not seen much on the Satori version you are working with. I have not quite come to terms with the HDS yet, but getting there. XT25 has not impressed me. The D2904 is always viable but a big price jump.
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Old 10th October 2012, 10:38 PM   #145
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I have the ER18RNX on hand. It is a special version with copper in the gap though and 4 Ohm.
I can measure it in comparison but i am nether a marketing guy for SEAS nor for SB.
SEAS makes nice tweeters, sure.
They made me a tweeter after my wishes too that i think is better then the 27TBFC.
Again a comparison can be set up.
I know the HDS since many years. Peerless did always sell more woofers then tweeters when i do not count the early efforts from the 80th, so something had to be done.
That was before Tymphany took over.
The XT can be difficult to make sound good. One problem has to do with the poor mechanics. If you make sure that this tweeter in in a good environment, mechanical wise, you do not know what it is capable of.
What do you spend usually on the rest of your equipment ?
I do really not think that the prices of the SB are high in comparison of what the are and what they do. Some customers of mine spend ten times as much on the wiring.
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Old 11th October 2012, 12:30 AM   #146
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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I agree on the value. SB seems to have solid design, good construction, quite reasonable price and quite a lot cheaper than the ScanSpeak, Morel, or several other exotic brands.

I guess I don't know what you mean by putting the tweeter in a good mechanical environment. I have not moved past simple flush mounting. My one attempt at de-coupling did not seem to make any difference. I found the XT resonance to be an issue if crossed below 2500 at less that 4th order, and the top to be rather bland. The HDS in my test box seemed a bit harsh, but I know it can do much better. Being quite happy with both the metal and cloth dome mid-price Seas, time to try and get the best of the SB29. It looks quite easy on paper and sounded pretty good on the bench.

I don't have big bucks to spend. As a reference my main system has a pair of Parasound 1200's for amps. A Creek in one room, an old Denon AVR in another. Practical. Mostly bought used. I typically use generic coils and Dayton poly caps. I tried Carity last time but did not hear a difference I could trust. That gives you an idea where I am coming from.
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Old 11th October 2012, 08:08 PM   #147
gornir is offline gornir  Sweden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim Gerhard View Post
Well, as we discussed, around 30cm so this will not be your typical slim mini monitor. By the way the delay between the tweeter and woofer is around 32mm when we take the backs of the baskets as reference.
Was the drivers relative acoustic center off-set measured at on-axis?

Usually it differs some when you go off-axis. I usually optimize my cross-overs around the 15deg off-axis measurements, where the baffle diffraction is less pronounced and where the acoustic center off-set is more consistent among other things.

Typically I've found out that the acoustic center off-set is about 2-3mm less in the 15-30deg measurements than the on-axis measurement.

Yes, it's not much, but if you strive for perfection and optimal phase tracking between the drivers it could make a difference.

/Göran
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Old 11th October 2012, 08:12 PM   #148
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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goenir,
Interesting. I had not heard that. For practical purposes, I usually tune for on axis and "fix" bad things for off axis. Have you found this shift makes an audible difference in a real room? Need to pull out my old Pulser box and do some testing!
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Old 11th October 2012, 08:36 PM   #149
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I will go to 30mm.
tvrgeek, i will post the XT tweeter i use. It has a much more rigid mechanical construction. Unfortunately that special version is not made any more. I have secured a batch of them.
I have not tried the HDS so i can not say much about it but i understand that you are on a budget and this is fine. I also find that many boutique passive parts are grossly overprices. When i want a really good cap i usually use Epcos MKV. They are not cheep but they are really well damped and have very low loss.
I measured the SEAS reed cone against the satori. Give me some time and then i come with more information.
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Old 11th October 2012, 08:43 PM   #150
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For example this ones :https://www.buerklin.com/datenblaett...D.pdf?ch=27274
They are the lower grades, they make some that have even less loss.
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