Hypex Ncore

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IMO...

Input stages often have more influence on the "sound" of an amplifier than the output (current) driver. The input stage of the nCore is quite different (discrete instrumentaion amplifier circuit with discrete regulators as standard) than that employed by the ucD modules, perhaps the input stage accounts for a lot of the difference?
 
no way i have heard this from 3-4 amplifiers but can`t find what was in

common.

crown ce2000 PA amp, earthquake 2150 car amp and earhquake 2075 car amp.

I think low o/p impedance is another way of saying "feedback loop" in these cases.

Maybe all these amps have feedback loops that works well for bass.

Low intermodulation distortion is probably key to get authoritative bass reproduction.

That said my vote usually goes to upstream components and the buffer stage with integrated PS regulation on the ncore probably has a lot to say too.
 
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I think low o/p impedance is another way of saying "feedback loop" in these cases.

Maybe all these amps have feedback loops that works well for bass.

Low intermodulation distortion is probably key to get authoritative bass reproduction.

That said my vote usually goes to upstream components and the buffer stage with integrated PS regulation on the ncore probably has a lot to say too.


well the ucd2k have remote sensors that include even the cables in the feedback loop.

i am not talking about authority.

all the amps control the woofer without any booming.

i am talking about speed.

it`s like the woofers are moving faster especially at the mid bass.

maybe 80-200hz
 
well the ucd2k have remote sensors that include even the cables in the feedback loop.

i am not talking about authority.

all the amps control the woofer without any booming.

i am talking about speed.

it`s like the woofers are moving faster especially at the mid bass.

maybe 80-200hz

I don´t like the notion of "speed" in bass, thats why I used another term. I do think we mean the same, though :)

Well the perception of "speed" -especially in the bass seldom has anything to do with "speed" in the physical sense as in "velocity" which generally is used to refer to the high frequency extension of a driver.

From my experience (and I am not alone) perceived speed in bass is typically related to the 80-150Hz area which you also as say in this case, + the roll off downwards (which is very, if not the most important). Getting this right you can have "fast" or "speedy" bass from physically slow woofers. This is a great part of why old school woofers with small magnets and high Qt can generate "fast" bass in closed boxes.

The role of amps is in theory to produce low o/p impedance to keep Qes of the driver low so that the speaker will have its intended low end roll off.
That said, where nfb loops are used, they are the main reason for the low o/p impedance, but they are also largely responsible for controlling/producing distortion.

When we are talking damping factors of 500+ my guess is that these distortion characteristics are the dominant reason for the perceived experience of the bass. DF 500+ is definitely beyond what cause "booming".

Ncore has magnitudes lower distortion than any of the UCDs and I believe this has much greater importance (also in the bass) than the power specs unless you really do use peak currents that exceed the specs.

The UCD2000 might have features to include remote sensors, and although I don´t really get that approach, I assume that they still must rely on the topology of the internal nfb loop which in the case of UCD now is from the dawn of times in terms of class D. The nfb loop on Ncore is quite an advancement on this, to say the least...
 
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I imagine this can only be related to damping factor associated with the ultra low output impedance.
I, for one, think "speed"can be an appropriate term to describe bass quality - especially associated with settling behaviour of the entire system as a function of damping factor, motor and cone power to weight ratio, and resonant environment of driver, box and room.

Most systems make square waves barely recognizable.
 
we definitely say the same thing.

the reason i added the 80-200hz is to make it clear.

i understand the part of distortion but not the roll off part.

the speaker is same unless you mean the frequency response of

the ncore is rolled off downwards.

The roll off part was meant as a general statement and is probably not especially evident for this concrete case as DF >500 should indicate other parts of the chain to be the main contributors of impedance between the theoretical o/p of the amp and the driving force in the speaker motors (Cables and especially coils adds far more DCR).

What I did mean with the roll off part is the effect of the systems energy distribution across the frequency domain. Too much low down somewhat perceptually "slows" the sound of the system. This is typically perceived as a dynamic property, but is in fact often a voicing or frequency balance property of the system.

- We are of course talking in room performance here -

Amps generally don´t have much frequency variation compared to speakers, so if the ncore sounds different in the bass, it is most likely not because it rolls off or alters the frequency response. However, many amps do sound very different though their frequency responses are very alike. This implies that the perceived voicing of electronics like amps relates to other attributes such as their distortion behavior. Due to that Ncore reduce distortion compared to most amps, it is likely to assume that this is part of why it perceptually sounds different and maybe even sounds like it has tighter bottom end (normally associated with having tighter roll off/better damping). Voicing and perception of tonal balance seems to relate not only to measured frequency balance, but also heavily on distortion behavior. More distortion low down is probably perceived as having more output low down.
 
I imagine this can only be related to damping factor associated with the ultra low output impedance.
I, for one, think "speed"can be an appropriate term to describe bass quality - especially associated with settling behaviour of the entire system as a function of damping factor, motor and cone power to weight ratio, and resonant environment of driver, box and room.

Most systems make square waves barely recognizable.

how would you then quantify og qualify "speed" in bass?

Don´t you mean "damping" or "control" instead?
 
I think damping is one characteristic of control. Another is simply the speed of reaction to an input signal which is neatly displayed by the square wave produced (the measurement of which is limited by the impulse response of the microphone, unfortunately).

As to quantifying or qualifying; I guess the rise time and settling time could be easily quantified. Good measurement microphones are sufficiently faster than bass drivers and systems not to present much distortion of results.
 
I think damping is one characteristic of control. Another is simply the speed of reaction to an input signal which is neatly displayed by the square wave produced (the measurement of which is limited by the impulse response of the microphone, unfortunately).

As to quantifying or qualifying; I guess the rise time and settling time could be easily quantified. Good measurement microphones are sufficiently faster than bass drivers and systems not to present much distortion of results.

If you by "speed of reaction to an input" mean acceleration I think I do get what you mean. Audio Technology has spec´ed their drivers "theoretical acceleration factor" for years. This number simply corresponds to the ratio between the drivers´ BL and mms.

This is however strongly tied to the potential bandwidth of the (theoretical perfect) driver. By convention the "speed" of a driver refers to its useful bandwidth. As you get near the limit of drivers bandwidth two main things will occur making drivers less "perfect".

1 The reactance of the vc will limit the ability of the driving current to change direction (limiting HF).

2 The cone will stop being pistonic basically meaning that the cone can´t keep up with the vc as one piece but instead bend in different modes.

Another thing is power compression if the signal heats the coil enough to make a significant impact on the impedance.

However, this is what could happen if the driver is used full range.

Due to that we do talk about "woofers", some kind of LP filter must be considered too. Usually a low pass filter is employed to limit the "speed" of the woofer so that the woofer´s inherent limitations are avoided as much as possible.

This basically means that a larger coil (in a passive configuration) limits the driving current´s ability to alter direction more than either woofer´s cone or vc will. In an active filter it is the ability of voltage to alter direction instead.

If you have a signal that changes "faster" than the intended operational bandwidth of the woofer, another driver should take over responding to the signal. Otherwise the woofer is run full range, which is a different configuration :)
 
Another is simply the speed of reaction to an input signal which is neatly displayed by the square wave produced

Any square wave reproduced by most speakers doesn't resemble a square wave at all due to frequency response and phase shift issues. Have a look at a square wave where the harmonics have been phase shifted or unevenly attenuated/amplified - it really doesn't look like a square wave any more.

The graphical (visual) shape of a square wave tells us very little. The spectral and temporal analysis of it does.
 
damping factor is out of the question.

the b&O 1000ASP have a damping factor of 5000 and is worse than all

the amps i mentioned.

i have a sunfire 7401 with df 150 and its equally good to the ucd2k(df800)

reading all your posts the most possible reason is low distortion.

actually i am thinking that the harmonics of a kick drum can maybe

extend to 1khz.

i would like to hear from stigerik when he was experimenting if he tried

to use ncore for the woofers and ucd 400 for the ribbons and if yes

if he did notice better bass with full ncore.

this would show as if the harmonics have part at the perceived

bass "speed"
 
Question. When I power on /off my 5 channel nCore there is a "tic" over my 5 speakers. The power on / off works with a trigger from Pre. It "tics" also when I mute my Pre (Marantz AV7005). It's all connected with Hypex XLR. I guess it must be in the Pre. In the testconfig I used a Logitech Squeezebox over cinch and there was no tic. Anyone any idea? Thanks!

Grtz Audioschipper
 
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i would like to hear from stigerik when he was experimenting if he tried to use ncore for the woofers and ucd 400 for the ribbons and if yes if he did notice better bass with full ncore.

Never tested that, sorry.

As an other poster said earlier in this thread, the quality difference between other amps and Ncore was most noticeable in the upper bass range. I would say 100-200 Hz.
 
Still have them ...

Let´s hit the 5000 posts mark for this monster thread!

Do we smell an experiment coming, StigErik ? ;)

It´s been around for a awhile that improvements in the treble will audible impact the bass too.

So it is not unlikely that UCDs on your ribbons will alter the perception of the bass although your woofer systems are unchanged.

Physically speaking, whatever signals that demand more acceleration than what your woofers are configured to produce rely on the ribbons, so whatever is meant by "leading edge" might rely more on the HP section than the LP
 
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