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Old 23rd March 2013, 06:14 PM   #6611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_push_pull View Post
I won't argue.
but I'm more inclined to think it's not a preference thing. I do know that a lot of people reported that they switched from big name amps to Hypex based ones. OTOH I know that a small and not always vocal proportion of the public agrees with me.
that's why I said that I am flabbergasted
I would be flabbergasted if everyone had the same opinion. Audio clearly has a very large subjective component. It is to be expected that people have different preferences. Hardly a surprise that some people dislike Hypex. Seems that even more people like it, though....
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Old 23rd March 2013, 06:25 PM   #6612
Omholt is offline Omholt  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_push_pull View Post
Omholt, actually the new amp is the more revealing one. recordings sound more different from each other compared to before.
and, since you quoted a friend of yours, I'll quote one of mine. guy said "worst thing is gear that makes everything sound the same way". I feel like he was describing my UCD.
and the UCD was not harsh in any way. actually, the other way round. it sounded like "sir, can I interest you in this polite and boring sound?"
I'm glad you found an amp you enjoy in your system.
Would be interesting to hear which it is. Perhaps there's a good tehnical explanation for your experience.

Your experience with everything "sounding the same" is far from mine. That's however what I experience with some amps that has a clear euphoric footprint of distiortion. It's like eating food with louds of oregano on it all the time. But that's not what UcD amps do.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 06:27 PM   #6613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
That said, would you be so kind to tell us what's the new wonder amp is called and what UCDs you used and how you implemented them -PS/input wise?
Audio Refinement Complete. but does it matter? 20000uF of reservoir caps per rail (just like with my UCD), smallish R-core transformer, low NFB, nothing fancy. look at the insides. it'll make you laugh.

first I used separate linear supplies per side. 200VA transformers, fast, soft-recovery bridges and 20000uF per rail. compared it to an audiophile class A amp (forgot the brand, 5k-6k price range) on Dynaudio Audience speakers. definite difference in the bass but very close otherwise. than switched to an audio SMPS (bought used, unidentified brand). measured very small supply sag with a full-scale 50Hz sine and a 4-ohm resistive load. definitely smaller than with the linear supply but can't recall exact figures, it was a while ago. still, inferior bass.

I'll let you guess what's one of the most noticeable differences with the Audio Refinement

but yes. I do believe that power supply has a lot to do with it, contrary to what some try to suggest. also, I feel a bit upset by the fact that Hypex only lists PSRR at one frequency only (sorry if I'm mistaken, I'll check the datasheet and rectify if necessary).

again I agree that what made me refrain from going the NCORE route was the fact that I've always felt that it's "more UCD". I believe I wrote that exact same expression before.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 06:41 PM   #6614
3lviz is offline 3lviz  Finland
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I am just glad that you finally found the amp you are completely satisfied with.

However, when talking about the highs, i wonder if UCD amp would sound more to your liking if it had a low pass filter with -3dB cut off at around 22khz. According to stereophile measurements the Audio Refinement The Complete amp has that kind of input/output filter.

Audio Refinement The Complete integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

Last edited by 3lviz; 23rd March 2013 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 06:47 PM   #6615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julf View Post
But then again, I don't think there are night and day differences in any decent, modern amps (except for "audiphile" monsters and some tube amps that are designed to be "euphoric" instead of transparent).
Mr. Allan Shaw, owner and designer of well-respected Harbeth brand, agrees with you. I don't
when I said fanboys, I did not mean you, if that's what you're implying. AFAIK you did not own UCD amps and the NCORES may be very well suited to your system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lviz View Post
However, when talking about the highs, i wonder if UCD amp would sound more to your liking if it had a low pass filter with -3dB cut off at around 25khz. According to stereophile measurements the Audio Refinement The Complete amp has that kind of input/output filter.
you're welcome to call me a liar, but here's the story. I looked at the measurements before the amp arrived. I'm 40% a meter reader I had expected to hear just what the FR plot suggested: recessed highs. but then I received the package, connected the amp and turned it on. o-oh! that is a cognitive dissonance kind of o-oh. because the Audio Refinement sounds like it has more highs.
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Last edited by mr_push_pull; 23rd March 2013 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 06:59 PM   #6616
3lviz is offline 3lviz  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_push_pull View Post
you're welcome to call me a liar, but here's the story. I looked at the measurements before the amp arrived. I had expected to hear just what the FR plot suggested: recessed highs. but then I received the package, connected the amp and turnit on. o-oh! that is a cognitive dissonance kind of o-oh. because the Audio Refinement sounds like it has more highs.
I have no reason to call you a liar. However i think there is some "weird" things happening in the brain when perceiving sound as a whole. Especially when the really high frequencies are changed. Maybe same kind of low pass filter "trick" would work on any amp, such as like the UCD. Or maybe not, if there is more to it, but imo its worth a try anyways.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 07:05 PM   #6617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3lviz View Post
I have no reason to call you a liar. However i think there is some "weird" things happening in the brain when perceiving sound as a whole. Especially when the really high frequencies are changed. Maybe same kind of low pass filter "trick" would work on any amp, such as like the UCD. Or maybe not, if there is more to it, but imo its worth a try anyways.
definitely, perception is complex. I read psychoacoustics from time to time, I find it fascinating.
what I find impossible to get my head around to is the fact that the UCD is supposed to sound better. I find it impossible to believe that experienced sound engineers, using the best gear available intentionally mix and master music so that all of it sounds bad.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 07:22 PM   #6618
Omholt is offline Omholt  Norway
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Looking at measurements of Audio Refinement, it doesn't look that, eh refined.
Audio Refinement The Complete integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
Something isn't right here. I don't know what.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 07:25 PM   #6619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omholt View Post
Looking at measurements of Audio Refinement, it doesn't look that, eh refined.
Audio Refinement The Complete integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
Something isn't right here. I don't know what.
euphonics? deliberately tuned?
no. that "no" is coming from my ears. because they tell me the AR amp fixed the anti-music the UCDs produced. sorry for the bluntness, but it's the frankest way I can put it.
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Old 23rd March 2013, 08:06 PM   #6620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_push_pull View Post
Audio Refinement Complete. but does it matter? 20000uF of reservoir caps per rail (just like with my UCD), smallish R-core transformer, low NFB, nothing fancy. look at the insides. it'll make you laugh.

first I used separate linear supplies per side. 200VA transformers, fast, soft-recovery bridges and 20000uF per rail. compared it to an audiophile class A amp (forgot the brand, 5k-6k price range) on Dynaudio Audience speakers. definite difference in the bass but very close otherwise. than switched to an audio SMPS (bought used, unidentified brand). measured very small supply sag with a full-scale 50Hz sine and a 4-ohm resistive load. definitely smaller than with the linear supply but can't recall exact figures, it was a while ago. still, inferior bass.

I'll let you guess what's one of the most noticeable differences with the Audio Refinement

but yes. I do believe that power supply has a lot to do with it, contrary to what some try to suggest. also, I feel a bit upset by the fact that Hypex only lists PSRR at one frequency only (sorry if I'm mistaken, I'll check the datasheet and rectify if necessary).

again I agree that what made me refrain from going the NCORE route was the fact that I've always felt that it's "more UCD". I believe I wrote that exact same expression before.
Thanks for sharing.

From what you write, I somehow come to believe that it could be the high levels of nfb and low resulting o/p impedance of the UCDs that produce the sound you dislike. Not in any way to hint that your ears are wrong, but from my own bodging I have also experienced the double-edged impact of high DF. It does provide control and detail -but small matching issues can easily cause a "plasitc-like" sound that doesn't "breath" properly. It's like everything sort of sticks annoyingly together and produce a flat up front presentation with too little body in the bass and too much glare on every thing.

An interesting experiment could be for you to deploy some small series resistors to the hot o/p terminals of your UCD amp. Try something like 0.22-0.1 R and "see" how that affects things. My guess is that it'll get quite a lot closer to the a/b amp
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