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Old 17th February 2013, 06:55 PM   #6361
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
Can-you list any reason why a schematic realized in a integrated circuit has any reason to be inferior to the same, with discreet components?
Audiophile superstition?
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Old 17th February 2013, 08:07 PM   #6362
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I do remember Bruno said somewhere in this thread that the discrete input stage of the NC400 has lower distortion than any integrated OP-AMP.....
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Old 17th February 2013, 08:13 PM   #6363
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And in fact he did:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno Putzeys View Post
The choice for a discrete input stage stems from the fact that I wanted it to be better than what one can do with the best IC op amps.
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Old 17th February 2013, 08:14 PM   #6364
Omholt is offline Omholt  Norway
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In Bruno we trust.
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Old 17th February 2013, 08:16 PM   #6365
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When it comes to technical stuff, yes I tend to do that.
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Old 17th February 2013, 09:13 PM   #6366
ro9397 is offline ro9397  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
Oh, please, not this IC vs Discrete again. Can-you list any reason why a schematic realized in a integrated circuit can be inferior to the same, with discreet components ? Quality of the silicon resistances vs thin film can be on response, but, look at the distortion level of AD797 etc...

On the opposite, the IC brings a lot of advantages: better matching between active devices (and temperature balance) , better precision of passive devices (laser trim at wafer) better HF behavior due to the small size and, so less inductive connections, little price, because the number of transistor in an OPA is not a production matter.

Generalizing this stupid legend, due to the poor speed of the first OPA (741) is boring, at a time you can find OPAs with 1000V/µs of slew rate, 1.5nV/√hz of noise, < -120db distortion devices. Just chose the right one for your needs and care the power supply rails.
Amen! I wish Bruno just gave DIY the opamp. I suppose it's possible that Bruno gave us the more costly discreet for two reasons: DIY demanded it, plus it gave the OEM kit a sonic advantage.

Esperado: did not the poster to whom you replied agree with you? You seem to imply a conflict between your points where no conflict exists.
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Old 17th February 2013, 09:29 PM   #6367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ro9397 View Post
...it gave the OEM kit a sonic advantage.

Pure speculation on the cause of perceived differences, none of which have been proved in any way.
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Old 17th February 2013, 09:35 PM   #6368
ro9397 is offline ro9397  United States
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Yes, lower distortion, but (apparently) less audio performance. The more I think about, the more I think his choices were to give performance advantage to more costly OEM, while pointing to better specs for DIY.

Please, someone explain this for us: How can Bruno possibly sell any OEM a Hypex, when OEM street price must be and will be several multiples of DIY (similar technology), while in the same breath as mentioning the price to the OEM, Bruno tells the OEM he gives them a worse sounding input stage. That simply is impossible to believe, sorry. OEMs would laugh him out of the room and tell him he's banned till he repents.

Let me know if you disagree with me (I have manufacturing OEM experience) above makes absolutely, positively no sense at all. I'm not calling anyone a liar. I love Bruno. I sympathize.

I'm saying:
  1. DIY wrongly perceive advantage for discreet input stage vs. IC
  2. DIY demand discreet input stage for nc400
  3. Bruno responds yes to #2
  4. Some discreet parameters measure better than IC
  5. Bruno employs #4 as DIY marketing tool, to great success
  6. Bruno gives OEM the op-amp, requesting OEM forgive and ignore #5 ("don't look behind the curtain:" Wizard of Oz) because the IC sounds better, which he proves to them beyond any doubt, which they agree to keep confidential because to refuse hurts all concerned but most of all the OEM

Exactly what am I missing above?
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Last edited by ro9397; 17th February 2013 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 17th February 2013, 09:53 PM   #6369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ro9397 View Post
Amen! I wish Bruno just gave DIY the opamp. I suppose it's possible that Bruno gave us the more costly discreet for two reasons: DIY demanded it, plus it gave the OEM kit a sonic advantage.

Esperado: ...(snip)...You seem to imply a conflict between your points where no conflict exists.
The reason to chose discrete components are:
- There is not integrated ones to feet perfectly *all* your requisites.
- It is more hype for your image or your market.
- It is less expensive for you.
Once done, you will justify your choice the best way you can, depending of your public.
I do not imply any conflict. If i understand well there are two models of Hypex Ncore amps.
One use discrete devices for input stage, the other OPA. Not the same power, not the same price. No need to argue endless with any chose of parts inside: just the matter is to listen and chose.
Any change of the topology in an amplifier will produce a signature change (and different measurements). But it is a *whole*, not the add of individual stages, as we are in closed loop configuration.
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Old 17th February 2013, 10:06 PM   #6370
ro9397 is offline ro9397  United States
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I never heard nc1200, but will at first opportunity.

DIY bridged nc400/SMPS600 mono block total cost about $1650 including import customs duty + estimate three hours assembly with precut cnc chassis.

Several OEM sell nc1200, starting about $5k MSRP. Some such as $6k Theta have dealer markup.

The closer is DIY performance to OEM, the less likely is OEM sale. Conversely, the greater is OEM acceptance, the more likely is there OEM performance advantage.

The fact that several OEM have jumped on board supports the conclusion that OEM offer a better performing amp. I tend to think OEM have already done extensive AB testing vs. the DIY kit we all own.
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