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Old 30th January 2013, 03:07 PM   #6251
Julf is online now Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
Just a very tiny bit of self-reflection would probably have questioned the self-reviewing...
The "perhaps" was intended to imply light-hearted speculation.

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That is of course very difficult to quantify in any objective manner, which actually IS the point
Indeed - as a lot of science (as opposed to cargo cult science) is all about ensuring objectivity.
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Old 30th January 2013, 03:17 PM   #6252
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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
Yes, lots of the usual audiophile voodoo.
Yes and not. Some tips can improve performance, and it is measurable. Power supply regulation is one, quality of the feedback resistance an other, as examples.
Resistances produce very little distortions, but they produce some. Resistances with magnetic parts produce more distortion than very good thin film audio ones. And, it is obvious that the feedback path linearity is important. Notice too that resistance's distortions increase with their temperature, so, it is good to take a big power margin.
Now, that the change is worth the price and the effort, or even can be noticed or not is an other question.
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Old 30th January 2013, 03:30 PM   #6253
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Now, that the change is worth the price and the effort, or even can be noticed or not is an other question.
Right - and how often are the results actually verified (either by measurements or by double-blind ABX listening)?
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Old 30th January 2013, 03:31 PM   #6254
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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
The "perhaps" was intended to imply light-hearted speculation.



Indeed - as a lot of science (as opposed to cargo cult science) is all about ensuring objectivity.
Yes, we completely agree, as long "objectivity" concerns only the facts and the factness of the production of these facts, and not by a million miles the extrapolation and speculation that goes into applying such facts -as in real-world designs and functional products where complexity and uncertainties rule the game. If we believe that science has "the answer" to it all, then we do not stick to the facts -which actually is the scientific positivist ideal. Of course in reality scientists and audiophiles say all sorts of crap as they wander into the un-factual world of "whatever good sound is".
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Old 30th January 2013, 03:37 PM   #6255
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I think many nCore owners are indeed drinking the Hypex kool-aid. But there is nothing wrong drinking kool-aid that tastes like science, unless of course you can prove the science wrong or make it better. I would be more worried about the Kool-aid flavors that are based on marketing, opinions, hearsay and social behavior.

Every nCore owner knows that it is not the best amplifier in the world, but that its just pretty damn good. But because of the good specs and the stigma of class-d some publications have maybe overly implicated that. Crowds don't like winners they didn't choose. I just hope its not all bashing, but there are some constructive points too that pushes the technology further.
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Old 30th January 2013, 03:37 PM   #6256
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Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
If we believe that science has "the answer" to it all, then we do not stick to the facts
I don't think any scientist or engineer would ever claim that science has the answer to it all - but some of us could perhaps venture to state that science has a process for arriving at the closest approximation of an answer we can have.

OK, this thread has already gone off to areas where few threads have gone before, but let's not turn this into a Theory of Knowledge 101 lecture...
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Old 30th January 2013, 04:03 PM   #6257
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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
I don't think any scientist or engineer would ever claim that science has the answer to it all - but some of us could perhaps venture to state that science has a process for arriving at the closest approximation of an answer we can have.

OK, this thread has already gone off to areas where few threads have gone before, but let's not turn this into a Theory of Knowledge 101 lecture...
Agree, on condition of the seemingly tiny, but outmost important detail, that the "approximation" is done through delimitations that not only provide the ability to say something factual, but also make the factuality of that something to only account for something very reduced and "abstracted" from the complex whole of which we actually concern. OK, enough epistemology for today

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Old 30th January 2013, 04:34 PM   #6258
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Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
Now, that the change is worth the price and the effort, or even can be noticed or not is an other question.
that IS the actual issue.


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Originally Posted by 3lviz View Post
I think many nCore owners are indeed drinking the Hypex kool-aid.
I agree, it is my impression too. problem is that putting the "anti-fan boy" clothes on, one does actually become just another kind of fan boy. it's interesting to see how long they can go on without realizing it. I do understand the "reaction/counter-reaction" thing, this is why I mentioned it, but sometimes a reaction to something perceived as bad is not automatically good


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Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
But because of the good specs and the stigma of class-d some publications have maybe overly implicated that. Crowds don't like winners they didn't choose. I just hope its not all bashing, but there are some constructive points too that pushes the technology further.
stigma? what stigma?
oooh, you mean the obvious anti class-D campaign or the sort, seen for instance above in the mentioned TAS issue?

look, I refrained from buying the NCORE at the last moment. I want to be sure that a component is right in my system and the price for even the most basic implementation doesn't exactly convince me to take a leap of faith. it's just about my system and a component being right for it. I don't get a boner by looking at the NCORE logo, just as I don't think the UCD which I own is the best thing since sliced bread.
but I sincerely appreciate Bruno's approach. the fact that he promotes a rational approach. reaction/counter-reaction again. there needs to be a balance. what if no-one listened? some meter-reader would've concluded, based on some 10 minutes of research that 30% THD is ok. but then came a cap-listener and said no, I don't agree, and that forced the meter-reader to reconsider. all for the better. opposite examples can be imagined. what if everyone just tossed all science and said let's just buy a bunch of $1000 Audio Note caps and have a merry listening session? we'd be nowhere, we'd have $500k amps that sounded worse than a current chip-amp. oh but maybe we already have them LOL. my point is that blind trial and error can only get you so far. I'm glad there's people out there who actually think that a thorough understanding of human perception is the key of quality audio reproduction. just look inside the Meridian gear (I wouldn't be surprised if someone jumped in and said I've listened to their stuff and it sucks, so you're full of it Mr. PP). no AN caps, quite the contrary, some Taiwanese Samwha ones can be spotted. no fancy transport, just a $50 (or are they $10 already?) DVD-RW. no 10kg transformer with huge caps, just a feeble-looking SMPS. still, looks like some people are not very keen on getting rid of them maybe it has to do with the fact that the guys designing them have an actual idea about what matters and what doesn't.
of course, no-one is 100% right but the healthy disagreement should make us wonder and progress. just sticking to one approach is not good. of course I have my biases towards one of the poles, but, maybe surprisingly, I'm only a human
ok, time to go now, I have some love letters to write to Hypex and Meridian.

LE: here's some sort of Mola-Mola review: http://www.stereotimes.com/commGTTAudio.shtml
being compared to some $50k Soulution.
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Last edited by mr_push_pull; 30th January 2013 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 30th January 2013, 05:03 PM   #6259
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Originally Posted by sq225917 View Post
once they are accepted as equals or better in terms of measurements they will differentiate from one another via application of a house sound.
And some of us would prefer it to be the sound of our own house, not somebody else's.
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Old 30th January 2013, 05:14 PM   #6260
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Let make the things clear. i'm not an audiophile (look my signature), chasing phantoms, or playing with sound of cables.
Measurements numbers are a tool when you design any audio deice, to verify and improve your design. For a consumer, it is only interesting as "minimum required" numbers.
Because we cannot yet, correlate all numbers with listening impressions.
This said, it is important to make the difference between bulsshit and real. Each time i had improved a power supply, in a high end system, i had a listening improvement. Components have distortion and 'signature'. Playing with the last 0.0001% can be expensive, can improve a little the last millimeter. But, if i agree to fight against stupid oil snake, some tips, if they are understood, and the technical reasons explained, are real and can measured.
As i said, the question remain of the importance of one point of distortion where it is in the 0.00x range, or 3db in a signal/noise ratio of 120dB. I will not argue about because it is useless.

mr_push_pull , you have quoted under my pseudo a text with was not mine !
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Last edited by Esperado; 30th January 2013 at 05:17 PM.
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