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Old 17th January 2013, 06:08 PM   #6041
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ds23man View Post
It is a utterly wrong assumption that the damping factor of an amp has an influence on sound quality in horn speakers!
As my only experience with horns is in PA applications (where things like damping factor are rather secondary factors), so I am in no position to argue with you on that point - all I know is that some people I know and respect don't share your view. Do you have any references to support your rather strong statement?
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Old 17th January 2013, 06:11 PM   #6042
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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
Horns don't make any exception to preserving damping factor - while the difference between horns and "normal" speakers might be that the horns don't benefit as much from a high damping factor, it doesn't change the fact that a series resistor will spoil the damping factor.
Don't agree. I explained why.
And that is experienced with decades on 'hi end' horns, on my side.
Horns are usually used on a large bandwidth, means you don't like to make them fractionate at HF.
They are damped by design on all the surface of the membrane by the compression. You do not want to add a risk to fractionate, trying to damp them with high slew rate signals applied to their coil at the edge of the membrane.

More generally, damping factor is really useful only at resonance.
You do not use a horn driver at his resonance, if you avoid distortion.
It is like large band speakers: They definitively don't like electric damping, because you use them above the frequency where they fractionate, and work better with a high impedance amp, damping their resonance by a bass reflex or a 1/4 wave enclosure.
More damping to them, more you ear the "membrane material" and get a tortured frequency curve.
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Last edited by Esperado; 17th January 2013 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 17th January 2013, 06:19 PM   #6043
ds23man is offline ds23man  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julf View Post
As my only experience with horns is in PA applications (where things like damping factor are rather secondary factors), so I am in no position to argue with you on that point - all I know is that some people I know and respect don't share your view. Do you have any references to support your rather strong statement?
Scroll to the part dampening and dynamics:

Why Horns?
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Old 17th January 2013, 06:48 PM   #6044
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by ds23man View Post
Scroll to the part dampening and dynamics:

Why Horns?
Interestingly, I found this response/rebuttal.
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Old 17th January 2013, 06:56 PM   #6045
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
More generally, damping factor is really useful only at resonance.
You do not use a horn driver at his resonance, if you avoid distortion.
It is like large band speakers: They definitively don't like electric damping, because you use them above the frequency where they fractionate, and work better with a high impedance amp, damping their resonance by a bass reflex or a 1/4 wave enclosure.
More damping to them, more you ear the "membrane material" and get a tortured frequency curve.
OK - as I stated, my experience with horns is mostly in the PA area. One of the horns I was involved in long ago was a 3 m x 2 m x 1 m concrete horn, with 2 15" drivers. They definitely benefited from damping.

So, in order to get this discussion back to nCores, can we agree that a resistor on the output of the nCore definitely spoils the excellent damping ratio of the nCores. It might or might not matter with horns - but anyone using horn speakers probably has a strong view of their own on that matter.
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Old 17th January 2013, 06:58 PM   #6046
ds23man is offline ds23man  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
Interestingly, I found this response/rebuttal.
Ok, but where is the part on amp dampening factor influence in horn system?????
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Old 17th January 2013, 07:03 PM   #6047
ds23man is offline ds23man  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julf View Post
OK - as I stated, my experience with horns is mostly in the PA area. One of the horns I was involved in long ago was a 3 m x 2 m x 1 m concrete horn, with 2 15" drivers. They definitely benefited from damping.

So, in order to get this discussion back to nCores, can we agree that a resistor on the output of the nCore definitely spoils the excellent damping ratio of the nCores. It might or might not matter with horns - but anyone using horn speakers probably has a strong view of their own on that matter.
The discussion was: if you have high sensitivity compression drivers and you want to use an overpowered Ncore without hiss, should you reduce the gain of it ( 3 db) or is it possible to use a lpad or series resistor without serious quality loss.
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Old 17th January 2013, 07:03 PM   #6048
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julf View Post
OK - as I stated, my experience with horns is mostly in the PA area. One of the horns I was involved in long ago was a 3 m x 2 m x 1 m concrete horn, with 2 15" drivers. They definitely benefited from damping.

So, in order to get this discussion back to nCores, can we agree that a resistor on the output of the nCore definitely spoils the excellent damping ratio of the nCores. It might or might not matter with horns - but anyone using horn speakers probably has a strong view of their own on that matter.
I have never liked them for domestic listening (horns) , over 6m , well Ok ...
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Old 17th January 2013, 07:06 PM   #6049
ds23man is offline ds23man  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julf View Post
OK - as I stated, my experience with horns is mostly in the PA area. One of the horns I was involved in long ago was a 3 m x 2 m x 1 m concrete horn, with 2 15" drivers. They definitely benefited from damping.

So, in order to get this discussion back to nCores, can we agree that a resistor on the output of the nCore definitely spoils the excellent damping ratio of the nCores. It might or might not matter with horns - but anyone using horn speakers probably has a strong view of their own on that matter.
Yes, but they are used at their resonance point.......................
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Old 17th January 2013, 07:28 PM   #6050
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Originally Posted by ds23man View Post
Ok, but where is the part on amp dampening factor influence in horn system?????
Nowhere - but the part I found interesting was the "The reader will note many areas where I disagree with Mr. Kolbrek, but mostly I disagree with continuing to propagate concepts that are not based in reliable science"
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