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Old 16th January 2013, 03:17 PM   #5991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julf View Post
Nice conjuncture - but just a conjuncture. As stated before, the opinion from Bruno is that the nc400 should perform marginally better with lowered gain.



With or without R141, the distortion is so low that I doubt it causes any audible differences.
Yes, though note the "should" as in theoretical deduction - any empirical evidence to back it? probably not...
(Ups, forgot the many subjective listening reports confirming the improvement, - sorry)

yes, ncore THD is VERY low and it´s audibility has surprised many. Why shouldn´t an even lower THD (and especially if changed THD) be audible too? After all we have been surprised before so why shouldn´t we be that again....

- And yes that claim is theoretical too and I have no evidence to back it.
Source-amp matching is probably the biggest issue after all

cheers,

Last edited by Juhleren; 16th January 2013 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 16th January 2013, 03:21 PM   #5992
akasha is offline akasha  Denmark
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Originally Posted by Mark.Clappers View Post
Hi akasha,

How do you now the difference you heard (or think you heard) was due to the gain setting of the nCore? Did you perform a double blind ABX test?
come on you guys, either Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder will do

in the extreme cases we heard the ncore with no R141, it was barely "Hi-Fi"

AND for the record IF you really need double blind tests: why even bother, what are your really looking for, just listen

next thing: I will be accused of all faults found was due to my ignorance of performing the secret snake dance before removing the resistor in the bare light of the full moon
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Old 16th January 2013, 03:24 PM   #5993
pos is offline pos  Europe
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Removing R141 will put more "effort" on the preamplifier in front of it (~13dB more to output for the same level with the same low sensitivity loudspeakers). Maybe that is where the difference you heard comes from?
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Old 16th January 2013, 03:29 PM   #5994
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Akasha,

It was by no means an attack, I was just curios how you came to that conclusion. Personally I found that I can't trust my ears in these situations, there's always a bias. Measuring is IMHO a far better way of trying to find out what's going on, double blind ABX is another way but only to compare X to Y.

But maybe that's just me being an engineer vs. you being a Hi-Fi enthusiast (I made an assumption here please correct me if I am wrong)?

Nothing wrong with that but I think we should keep these thing well defined so anybody visiting DIYaudio knows what's going on. Just my 2C..
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Old 16th January 2013, 03:33 PM   #5995
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akasha View Post
in the extreme cases we heard the ncore with no R141, it was barely "Hi-Fi"
Well, in that case something was definitely wrong with your set-up. Probably forcing your pre-amp into clipping.

Quote:
AND for the record IF you really need double blind tests: why even bother, what are your really looking for, just listen
"You hear what you believe". Have you ever heard of perceptual bias?

Once again: Pen & Teller: Water Waiter (the relevant part starts at 5:00)

Quote:
next thing: I will be accused of all faults found was due to my ignorance of performing the secret snake dance before removing the resistor in the bare light of the full moon
Naah, you will just be accused of subjectivism and lack of scientific rigour...
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Old 16th January 2013, 03:33 PM   #5996
akasha is offline akasha  Denmark
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Sure, and appreciated. But I think it is also appropriate to make sure people are aware that you are the only one to report the loss in sound quality, while several of us have observed the opposite. In absence of reliable ABX results, we can only take your observations as an individual, subjective view, for whatever it is worth.
so you neglect the fact that all listeners at the Copenhagen HI-Fi club meeting

laughed at the SMPS fed ncore or simply saying I'm not to be trusted in referring others opinion at all
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Old 16th January 2013, 03:39 PM   #5997
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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so you neglect the fact that all listeners at the Copenhagen HI-Fi club meeting laughed at the SMPS fed ncore or simply saying I'm not to be trusted in referring others opinion at all
Well, yes, because not having been there, and not having been able to verify their reactions and your equipment set-up, it unfortunately comes down to "somebody claims that...".

I am not saying you are not to be trusted - I am just pointing out that all the evidence we, on this board, have is what you are telling us. Whether people trust what you are reporting or not is of course up to each person.

Those are facts, they are not meant as an attack or insult against you. It's just that some of us are engineers...
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Old 16th January 2013, 03:43 PM   #5998
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Originally Posted by pos View Post
Removing R141 will put more "effort" on the preamplifier in front of it (~13dB more to output for the same level with the same low sensitivity loudspeakers). Maybe that is where the difference you heard comes from?
This is what I meant by "moving" the "problem".

Also, since it is a resistor in the nfb loop (please correct me) shouldn´t it alter the impedance that the input buffer stage "sees" when driving the modulator/cnore thingy which Bruno explained already was a rather difficult load (at least compared to the UCD) and which was a major reason for giving the input a fresh up. The point is - besides additional nfb removing the resistor probably also cause different operational conditions for the input and thereby also the modulator/n"core" circuitry. Could this somehow affect the input buffer´s sensitivity to the source´s output?
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Old 16th January 2013, 03:56 PM   #5999
akasha is offline akasha  Denmark
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Originally Posted by Mark.Clappers View Post
Akasha,

It was by no means an attack, I was just curios how you came to that conclusion. Personally I found that I can't trust my ears in these situations, there's always a bias. Measuring is IMHO a far better way of trying to find out what's going on, double blind ABX is another way but only to compare X to Y.

But maybe that's just me being an engineer vs. you being a Hi-Fi enthusiast (I made an assumption here please correct me if I am wrong)?

Nothing wrong with that but I think we should keep these thing well defined so anybody visiting DIYaudio knows what's going on. Just my 2C..
I'm engineer as well as audio-enthusiast for 33 years

I'm not doing a review and not talking about anything that is "a matter of taste"

Julf: no clipping distortion, pleeease!

I'm just simply saying to all ncore users: beware not all pre stages will drive the R141-less ncore with every speaker

shake your head or be aware, whatever you do just move on for G..'s sake
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Old 16th January 2013, 04:01 PM   #6000
akasha is offline akasha  Denmark
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Originally Posted by Julf View Post
Well, yes, because not having been there, and not having been able to verify their reactions and your equipment set-up, it unfortunately comes down to "somebody claims that...".

I am not saying you are not to be trusted - I am just pointing out that all the evidence we, on this board, have is what you are telling us. Whether people trust what you are reporting or not is of course up to each person.

Those are facts, they are not meant as an attack or insult against you. It's just that some of us are engineers...
and some of us cant set us self free of that fact

music reproduction is NOT only about lowest distortion, I thought we left that back in the 80'es
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