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Old 17th November 2012, 11:22 PM   #5481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrows View Post
Has been noted here before, the SMPS600 for the nC400 amp modules is not a regulated supply: it's output voltage will vary with the variances of the incoming line voltage.
+1

I wanted to mention that but I forgot.

this has been stated many times by Bruno but I'll help people not use the search function again: the published measurements of the NCORE are with the SMPS600. I really think that major problems would not hide in a THD plot.
it looks like some *think* that regulation is inherently good, the designer of the SMSP600 *thinks* otherwise. a declared subjectivist should not think a power supply is better simply because it is regulated, without listening to it first, no?
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Last edited by mr_push_pull; 17th November 2012 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 18th November 2012, 02:51 AM   #5482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_push_pull View Post
it looks like some *think* that regulation is inherently good
We have to be a little technical here.
A regulated PSU can be a servo , when the voltage is sensed at the output of it.(closed loop). This help to reduce noise, but, depending on the stability ans speed of the loop, can have negative effects too, like overshoot, recovery time, slow responding times. and effects can be very different depending on the common mode and ripple rejection of an amp.

Switching SMPS frequencies can affect an amp with little rejection at hight frequencies, and they will behave better with 50/60Hz, but they can be be sensible to EMI pollution etc...

I never use any more that king of regulation, i prefer to use that kind of stabilization:
www.esperado.fr - Alimentation Crescendo
No negative effect of feedback loops, enough rejection and voltage stabilization, as well as a nice rejection of noise (depending of the type of reference voltage you use). Always better results than simple linear PSU in my analog amps.

Easy to add to a SMPS to see if any improvement in the listening experience with class D amps, playng too with caps values and qualities.
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Old 18th November 2012, 10:59 AM   #5483
Koifarm is offline Koifarm  Netherlands
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Hallo Christophe

I tested already a lot of powersupplies. I like to test also the power supply as you refferred to. Is there a PCB design for the supply?
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Old 18th November 2012, 03:38 PM   #5484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koifarm View Post
Is there a PCB design for the supply?
No, sorry, i had mounted the elements "in air" with TO3 transistors on radiators, and big caps.
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Old 18th November 2012, 04:17 PM   #5485
AP2 is offline AP2  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
We have to be a little technical here.
A regulated PSU can be a servo , when the voltage is sensed at the output of it.(closed loop). This help to reduce noise, but, depending on the stability ans speed of the loop, can have negative effects too, like overshoot, recovery time, slow responding times. and effects can be very different depending on the common mode and ripple rejection of an amp.

Switching SMPS frequencies can affect an amp with little rejection at hight frequencies, and they will behave better with 50/60Hz, but they can be be sensible to EMI pollution etc...

I never use any more that king of regulation, i prefer to use that kind of stabilization:
www.esperado.fr - Alimentation Crescendo
No negative effect of feedback loops, enough rejection and voltage stabilization, as well as a nice rejection of noise (depending of the type of reference voltage you use). Always better results than simple linear PSU in my analog amps.

Easy to add to a SMPS to see if any improvement in the listening experience with class D amps, playng too with caps values and qualities.
Hi,
just because it seems to me the correct answer.

Your scheme works of course, you can also bypass the active circuit and introduce a "R", given that you have large capacitors, as "CRC" filters. the dynamic performance, do not change.
------------
It is not easy to obtain (in the case of regulated), that all parameters are good as: EMI-RFI-Reset time (this is the time to balance the output voltage), and stabilization vs.AC-input, vs.output load,especially dynamically.



therefore, we can not say that a psu has "defects feedback loop", but it depends if you have been able to develop it.
I do not agree exactly with this method of disseminating the message, because it transmits a wrong information. (as refer my previous 2 posts).

@Juhleren:
I'm not absolute for the scientific use, as some have said, but for the proper use of science known (basic science). I believe that is not correct, change the basic science, depending on our convenience.
Some evaluation points to give value to an amplifier, are the same as these last 30 years.
A perfectly big class AB, we see: IMD, SN/R, FFT, Power bandswitch. these methods should be applied, independent of the working class amp.
Last .. when someone writes on a forum, in my opinion, should keep in mind the type of message that is giving a million people. right to avoid creating more chaos, strange and custom science on audio.

Regards

Last edited by AP2; 18th November 2012 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 18th November 2012, 04:48 PM   #5486
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post

AP2, if I read you right, you promote a "purely scientific" discussion, no?

(Sorry to all others for digging into this off-topic subject)

If so, the problem is that pure scientific claims and methods are developed (and Delimitated) for a very different use and purposes than to account for what we as "audio designers" need to make practically useful solutions.
(Don´t derive from this that I claim science NOT to be useful, I would never suggest that; science has only made us wiser)

-To cut a way too long story short:

Science IS typically right, but the point here is that this only applies to very purified and idealized phenomena -typically created under laboratory conditions. Such Lab conditions are VERY different from our actual home audio system implementations. We therefore need to be very cautious about what kind of recognitions we attempt to derive in the name of science to account for the issues that we try to deal with in our audio systems.

(Read that Science can only be expected to offer idealized "theoretical model(s)" that each only take into account a very delimitated set of variables -not necessarily well connected to what we experience and have interest in, BUT necessarily ONLY an abstracted extracted re-presentation of a much more complex and therefore too confusing experience) -Science constructs the phenomenon it studies -both in a sociological, psychological AND Material sense -of course.

Another point is that our personal and local experiences are very useful when shared as such -and not promoted as generalized recognitions. Science actually works that way too, just through much more standardized forms to make the different (local) data sets compatible and comparable for a collective analytical interpretation.

just me 2 x 2 cents,
Best,
hmm, seems you are speaking of an incomplete scientific model, one without application, learning and reiteration...


science is not all theory you know, though I suppose science in action should typically be called engineering

I do not think audio is any different, just the audience is flawed. I dont believe AP2 ignores listening tests as part of his model, he is not the one-eyed type you speak of. good power amplifiers for industry and scientific instrumentation have the very same goals, but often more demanding

Last edited by qusp; 18th November 2012 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:12 PM   #5487
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although I may seem to be AP2's biggest enemy, I'm not and when I'm actually able to decode through his automatically translated messages, I think he's partially right.
here's a paper that concerns the temporal resolution of hearing: http://www.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/p...n--Kunchur.pdf

it's been a long time since I read it and I am not in the mood to do so now, but speaking from memory the author found differences of the microsecond order to be audible. also from memory, I think he says it himself that it's yet to be determined if the audibility is actually related to the phenomenon under study. but definitely worth reading.

I actually sent the author a mail asking about amplifier details (purposely built) but he seemed less than eager to respond
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Last edited by mr_push_pull; 18th November 2012 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:24 PM   #5488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qusp View Post
hmm, seems you are speaking of an incomplete scientific model, one without application, learning and reiteration...


science is not all theory you know, though I suppose science in action should typically be called engineering

I do not think audio is any different, just the audience is flawed. I dont believe AP2 ignores listening tests as part of his model, he is not the one-eyed type you speak of. good power amplifiers for industry and scientific instrumentation have the very same goals, but often more demanding
qusp, I think you got me quite wrong there.

-I simply addressed something AP2 wrote, not him or his general thinking. Being one-eyed was not my claim at all. I don´t generally disagree with AP2 but science is not ALL there is relevant to discuss regarding audio, as I read him claiming in an earlier post.

"science in action" is actually a great book that still after 25 years nails this debate quite well. I´ll recommend you to read it if you are actually interested in understanding the practice of scientific fact generation and technology development.

That said science in action is much broader than "engineering". Science is probably better comprehended as practices that share certain traits among which you´ll find construction of reference connecting empirical data with re-presentations of the data. Read the book and you´ll see that this is not at all a controversial interpretation of science -to say the least.

I never said that science is "all theory". Then again theory typically is what is applied when applying science in engineering and should therefore be subject for reflection to avoid misconceptions about what the theory actually re-present scientifically (what it "refers" to)...

best

Last edited by Juhleren; 18th November 2012 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 18th November 2012, 08:57 PM   #5489
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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yes, that would be 'applied science', but thats too broad a term to use in this context, so I didnt and put 'typically' before it.

I think you'll find that AP2 was referring to something specific, certain aspects of this game are more open to interpretation than others and some really are all about the science and can repeatedly be demonstrated to be so. certainly not all can, but that amount that cant is shrinking more and more every day. some areas will remain in the realm of subjectivity forever too, as long as we inhabit our bodies alone, but that does not disprove the science any more than science fails to make your own experience illegitimate =)

what a conundrum =)

btw dont worry, AP2 will attest to me fighting with the translator for quite a while too, but we have over time developed an understanding, so that I can now more aptly fill in the blanks and make the substitutions needed to more accurately understand the intermediary.

brilliant psus though... thats all i'll say on that matter.

Last edited by qusp; 18th November 2012 at 09:07 PM. Reason: pluralization
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Old 18th November 2012, 10:07 PM   #5490
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Yes, as I read you, we are largely on the same page here.

Haven´t tried AP2´s PSUs yet, but I have no doubt that they are good.
Have you are anyone else tried these supplies with Ncore?
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