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Old 6th October 2012, 03:16 PM   #5121
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Thank you Barrows, that was a useful, well expressed post.
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Old 7th October 2012, 12:50 AM   #5122
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I agree somewhat Barrows - I haven't heard an amp that can do electronica like the Ncores and in fact on some vocals they are great as well - but there are times that I prefer my other amps which have a slight lushness that the Ncore misses. I've discovered that the Ncores are the better amps with my vinyl source (PS Audio GCPH / Ortofon 2M Black) but that I prefer my A/B amp with digital.
Yes the Ncore is transparent and breathtakingly clear - specs don't always tell the whole story though.
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Old 7th October 2012, 07:44 AM   #5123
Omholt is offline Omholt  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrows View Post
Pass X150.5 in my case. I would not extend my listening experience to a general point of class A and class A/B amps though. Only what I have actually compared.
And: to respond to your other comment: no, what I was describing was definitely not coloration, this is specifically why I mentioned it. Coloration changes tonality of sound which already exists. What was lacking in my (admittedly too brief to come to a full conclusion, why I mentioned I am going to listen more) listening was the upper harmonic decays of bells, chimes, cymbals, and other very high frequency sounds with tonal decays. With nCore amps they just seemed quite truncated. This observation does not indicate a coloration in the Pass (although that exists as well, as with any amp) but something omitted from the output of the nCores. I have heard enough actual bells, chimes, and cymbals in real life to know.
Perhaps longer break in, and/or a slightly different build could ameliorate this lack in the nCores. I am going to do another build soon and intend to do a lot of listening and fine tuning in order to find out.

It does not help to find the real perfromance of the nCores, if everytime someone has a listening observation which could be considered negative, then someon chimes in with: "you want coloration", or "you like the sound of distortion". As if the nCore amps were "perfect". Sorry, but nothing is perfect. I find the nCores very, very impressive and promising, and am very interested in a longer term audition of them. Hence, I will be doing a high quality stero build with them. If you must have measurements which indicate that the nCores are not "perfect", I would point you to their bandwidth, though I do not know that the limited bandwidth is a problem or not. What I do know, is that many, very well respected amplifier designers, with quite a bit more experience than Mr. Putzeys, do consider extended bandwidth important for amplifiers.
Do you mind posting some measurements of your speakers in the listening position?
And what other electronics are you using?
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Old 7th October 2012, 11:20 AM   #5124
Henkjan is offline Henkjan  Netherlands
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@barrows: thanks for the explanantion. and good to read that you comapre to the real instruments, and not just to another piece of electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrows View Post
... And: to respond to your other comment: no, what I was describing was definitely not coloration
I made no such comment...
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Old 7th October 2012, 03:00 PM   #5125
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Default Not Relevant...

"Do you mind posting some measurements of your speakers in the listening position?
And what other electronics are you using?'

1. Frequency response measurements would not be relevant to the specific observation I made. Additionally, the room, and its response, is the same in both of my observations: the difference(s) heard are only the differnces between the two amplifiers under test. The observations of the differences between amps which I reported were not of tonal differences, I have tried to point this out previously, and just cannot say it any more clearly than that.

2. A custom server, running Voyage/mpd, with a audiophile quality USB output card (SOtM), powered by a custom dual power supply, with a separate linear supply for the USB output card-a highly optimized Buffalo DAC build, with Salas regulators, and an onboard asynchronous USB receiver (SOtM, XMOS based), synchronously clocked with very low phase noise clocks, dedicated clock power supply (separate transformer) with two stages of regulation, each oscillator module being fed from its own shunt reg-DAC is direct connected to the amplifier via Nordost Frey cables-Nordost Frey speaker cables to Focus Audio FS-888 Signature loudspeakers.
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Old 8th October 2012, 09:05 AM   #5126
Omholt is offline Omholt  Norway
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I find it strange that someone makes obejective statements about an amp based on experiences primarily in their own setup. There are so many variables that come into place that it's almost impossible to know for sure what the amp's signature is and what is something else. One is hearing a complete system where speakers and acoustics contributes the most.

It's better in my opinion to share subjective experiences subjectively and not try to make objective conclusions.
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Old 8th October 2012, 02:17 PM   #5127
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Default Curious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omholt View Post
I find it strange that someone makes obejective statements about an amp based on experiences primarily in their own setup. There are so many variables that come into place that it's almost impossible to know for sure what the amp's signature is and what is something else. One is hearing a complete system where speakers and acoustics contributes the most.

It's better in my opinion to share subjective experiences subjectively and not try to make objective conclusions.
my subjective observations are exactly that and nothing more. Neither did I present them as anything more than my observations. Everyone else is free, and encouraged, to make their own observations. I presented them in a transparent way, and did not draw any overeaching conclusions, in fact, I expressed my desire to spend more time with an nCore amplifier to learn more about how it sounds.
But: I did make direct comparisons between the nCore and my Pass X150.5, in the exact same system. Within this context, which of course is what matters as it is what I listen to, the comparison is totally valid.

Interestingly, I have heard from quite a few people, both in this thread, and privately, who have experienced similar observations of the sound of the nCores in comparison to other well regarded class A/B amps-I am not drawing conclusions for others from these reports though, you are free to listen and come to your own conclusion.
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Old 9th October 2012, 07:05 AM   #5128
Omholt is offline Omholt  Norway
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Ok. I'm not saying your observation is wrong. Perhaps nCore is lacking something. Or maybe Pass X150.5 is adding some distortion. Not easy to know.
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Old 9th October 2012, 07:43 AM   #5129
Ianmac is offline Ianmac  Scotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrows View Post
What was lacking in my (admittedly too brief to come to a full conclusion, why I mentioned I am going to listen more) listening was the upper harmonic decays of bells, chimes, cymbals, and other very high frequency sounds with tonal decays. With nCore amps they just seemed quite truncated. This observation does not indicate a coloration in the Pass (although that exists as well, as with any amp) but something omitted from the output of the nCores. I have heard enough actual bells, chimes, and cymbals in real life to know.
distortion". As if the nCore amps were "perfect". Sorry, but nothing is perfect. I find the nCores very, very impressive and promising, and am very interested in a longer term audition of them. Hence, I will be doing a high quality stero build with them. If you must have measurements which indicate that the nCores are not "perfect", I would point you to their bandwidth, though I do not know that the limited bandwidth is a problem or not. What I do know, is that many, very well respected amplifier designers, with quite a bit more experience than Mr. Putzeys, do consider extended bandwidth important for amplifiers.
As a user of Both UcD and NCore.
On looking at building Hypex some years ago I had my reservations about the bandwidth. My understanding (thanks to Fourier when at college)was that the odd harmonics were essential to the faithfull reproduction of a square wave. While we do not have theoretical square waves in our audio signal one can argue that we have a close similarity with rising wavefronts.
Looking at a square wave at 15 Khz and we want to faithfully reproduce the 3rd 5th and 7th harmonic we are looking at a bandwidth in excess of 100Khz with the correct phase response.
Perhaps a close inspection of the waveforms generated by the various instruments in the orchestra would give a much more accurate picture of the harmonic content that an amplifier must be able to handle and I would be very surprised if Bruno has not already been down that route.
I agree some designers do consider extended bandwith up to 150 Khz essential but there is a lot more to amplifier design than bandwidth looked at in isolation.
My own experience, which is naturally constrained by the bandwith of my ears, is that the Ncore is the best all round amp Ive owned.
Perhaps you are much younger than me and blessed with young ears?
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Old 9th October 2012, 08:35 AM   #5130
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianmac View Post
While we do not have theoretical square waves in our audio signal one can argue that we have a close similarity with rising wavefronts.
I would be interested in hearing where/how people get source material that has any contents at frequencies above 100 kHz...
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