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Old 4th October 2011, 04:29 PM   #461
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Yeah, for me a 10W amp would actually be more than enough to power my main speakers. I dont need 400W at all.
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Old 4th October 2011, 06:50 PM   #462
_Wim_ is offline _Wim_  Belgium
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Originally Posted by StigErik View Post
Yeah, for me a 10W amp would actually be more than enough to power my main speakers. I dont need 400W at all.
Same here! But I suspect that a 10 Watt module will not be so much cheaper, and becasue even the 400 Watt version performs excellent at low power, and because it is intended to make only 1 DIY version, I understand that a 400 Watt version will suit most of us...
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Old 4th October 2011, 07:03 PM   #463
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Good point........ even if it feels ridiculous to have to much more power than you need. It's like having a Bugatti Veyron and drive it no faster than 10 km/h....
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Old 5th October 2011, 08:30 AM   #464
Cobra2 is offline Cobra2  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StigErik View Post
Good point........ even if it feels ridiculous to have to much more power than you need. It's like having a Bugatti Veyron and drive it no faster than 10 km/h....
But then again, you will have a bicycle, and not a Veyron
Arne K
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Old 5th October 2011, 12:54 PM   #465
tiki is offline tiki  Germany
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Hi,
don't we know psychoacoustical masking for a long time (read e.g. Blauert)? I "believe", that the amp distortions in its normal working range should be well inside the masking areas (SPL, deltaf, time) of the driver's distortion.

What means back EMF distortion? It will all be harmonic distortion or IMD at the end of line (to be measured by a microphone).
If there is impedance nonlinearity (may be caused by external changes) it will experienced as current distortion through the VC.

Check Klippels website (not only) for a listening test!

Please, measure the experienced distortions, group delay distortions and burst decay too if you want, and let us discuss/interpret it using the graphs.
To stay serious.
Thank you.

Cheers, Timo
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Old 5th October 2011, 01:04 PM   #466
ChrisPa is offline ChrisPa  United Kingdom
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Hi,
don't we know psychoacoustical masking for a long time (read e.g. Blauert)? I "believe", that the amp distortions in its normal working range should be well inside the masking areas (SPL, deltaf, time) of the driver's distortion.
So this means there is no audible difference between amplifiers because everything is masked by the driver's distortion....
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Old 5th October 2011, 01:10 PM   #467
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The main issue with "frugal Ncore" is that cost-wise there's not much to shave off below 200W. Every now and then JP pings me to ask if I could make a downsized UcD180LP and make it cheaper. The answer is "yes, but not so much cheaper that it'll pay back easily".

The price of the DIY modules is another matter. We insist on running a DIY line mainly because it's emotionally rewarding but on the other hand it has to make business sense. The DIY modules don't sell in huge quantities but it costs exactly as much to develop an HG module as an OEM module. And while professional customers cause our support department a lot more trouble than DIY'ers (you read that correctly: DIY customers do much fewer stupid things than pros), resolving a pro's technical question is written off over thousands of modules where the DIY customer only buys two.
Actually this is why we don't particularly like group buys. You give a volume discount but then you still have to help out individual customers. A similar problem happens with modules sold through reps. The buyers ring Hypex, not the rep. That's why we prefer to sell directly.

About power ratings, well... Normal "critical listening" levels hover around a long-term average of 85db SPL at the listening position. If we're assuming uncorrelated signals (rather inaccurate assumption but it'll do for the purpose) that is 82dB SPL for each speaker alone. Crudely calculating back from a 2m listening distance to the 1m standard measuring distance that's 88dBSPL, one speaker, one meter. It's not unusual for speakers to have an efficiency of 88dB/1w/1m so 1W is roughly the required amplifier power.

The current crop of unlistenable hypersquashed pop music has a peak to average range of around 4dB. So all it takes to reproduce pop at a reasonable level without clipping is a 4dBW (2.5W) rated amp.
Before the loudness war got into swing (say until the early 90's) peak-to-average ranges up to 14dB could be found in mainstream music. To play Sultans of Swing at the same average level requires an amp rated at 14dBW or 25W.
Classical music tends not to have dynamics compression on it (although I hear the loudness war has leaked into classical ranks too) but usually the dynamic range is manually managed (by gain riding) to about 16dB. You need 40W to deliver such recordings at a comfortable volume. Classical albums do exist though that have no gain riding and peak-to-average ratios of 20dB or more do occur. Wagner lands us into triple digit territory.
Note that I said comfortable volume, not realistic volume. Symphony orchestras can get very loud. An oft quoted number is 115dB SPL. That's 30dB over our 85dBSPL reference level, indicating a 1kW amp is in order.

First conclusion: Nelson Pass is a Dire Straits fan.
Second conclusion: clipping often goes unnoticed. It pays to build a clip detector into an amp just to get an idea of whether it happens. You'd be surprised how some kinds of material can sustain a lot of clipping before anyone notices. You can slice almost 10dB off the top of a snare hit with not much more than some fattening of the sound.

I think the above should make it clear that people who need more than 25W are not doing anything wrong. The only reason why you can say that more than a few 100W is overdoing it, is because at such levels the occasional clipping event isn't going to spoil the fun.
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Old 5th October 2011, 06:23 PM   #468
_Wim_ is offline _Wim_  Belgium
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I think if we look at the prices of the current high-end market (including some of your OEM customers), we still get very good value for money, and we have the additional fun of building it and making it work!

I think every DIYer should see DIY as a hobby, and not as a way to get good stuf for cheap (which is of course possible, if we don't charge ourselves an acceptable hourly rate...)

Of course, if we really want to have some "fun", we could try and design an ncore++ amp ourselves. But reading some of issues involved, I think I will just buy some boards from you...

Very much appreciated that you supply to the DIY-community, more OEMs should do this!
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Old 5th October 2011, 08:33 PM   #469
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Bruno, my system needs the NC (just blew my UCD180-based amp), please please hurry
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Old 6th October 2011, 05:44 AM   #470
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First conclusion: Nelson Pass is a Dire Straits fan.
you are again ubeatable !!!

Regards

Charles
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