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Old 29th June 2012, 09:55 PM   #4641
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@Juhleren

It seems like you describe the autoformer as something like an oposite to a bottleneck. However, since the autoformer can only be driven from the relationship between the load and the source, it will always act as a bottleneck with an increased disadvantage when the load is reactive.

Remember that a capacitive load is also reactive, but the really reactive loads occurs when a combination of capacitive and inductive components works together forming resonances. When an amplifier is designed with an inductive component in the output stage, it is important to ensure that the inductive character does not interact much with the reactive components of the loudspeaker as it wold affect the performance in an extreme way. Therefore the autoformer is designed to work very much as a resistive component with the loads and the frequency range it is intended to work with.
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Old 29th June 2012, 09:58 PM   #4642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtwrace View Post
I'm sure some of the tweakers or recording guys would love that. My Metric Halo LIO-8 has what they call "characters" for just this purpose. You want tube sound, select it and it really does sound like tubes. They have many different types too.
I'm sure recording guys would prefer to keep the "characters" limited at the source (i.e. using a card like your MH).

At the other end of the scale, we have "HiEnd Audio" where even cables with "sound signature" are sought-after.
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Last edited by TheShaman; 29th June 2012 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 29th June 2012, 10:22 PM   #4643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snickers-is View Post
@Juhleren

It seems like you describe the autoformer as something like an oposite to a bottleneck. However, since the autoformer can only be driven from the relationship between the load and the source, it will always act as a bottleneck with an increased disadvantage when the load is reactive.

Remember that a capacitive load is also reactive, but the really reactive loads occurs when a combination of capacitive and inductive components works together forming resonances. When an amplifier is designed with an inductive component in the output stage, it is important to ensure that the inductive character does not interact much with the reactive components of the loudspeaker as it wold affect the performance in an extreme way. Therefore the autoformer is designed to work very much as a resistive component with the loads and the frequency range it is intended to work with.
Snickers-is,

I think you read me wrong.

"Opposite to a bottleneck" wouldnīt be my way of seeing any component. Iīd rather look at the properties from different angles to assess possible wanted and unwanted effects of components.

It seems you look at the autoformer from the amp side to the speaker side (only) when you term it to be a resistive load.

- How would it measure if you look at the two coils separately ? -Then Iīm pretty sure we look at some serious inductance in series with the loads. This of course isnīt the whole picture, but the other way around isnīt either. Thatīs my point.

If it sounds different than a mere resistor, then it probably is different.

Remember that if your "theoretical model of a phenomenon" cannot account for an observation, the question is not necessarily whether the observation is flawed, but perhaps the model itself. -At least it probably leaves out something important.
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Old 29th June 2012, 10:56 PM   #4644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
Snickers-is,

I think you read me wrong.
That is possible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
It seems you look at the autoformer from the amp side to the speaker side (only) when you term it to be a resistive load.
No, not really, since the amplifier is the speakers load and the speaker is the amplifiers load. It needs to be viewed as an "analogue duplex circuit".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
- How would it measure if you look at the two coils separately ? -Then Iīm pretty sure we look at some serious inductance in series with the loads. This of course isnīt the whole picture, but the other way around isnīt either. Thatīs my point.
You can not look at the two coils separately since the inductance of one coils is very much depending on the other coil and what it is connected to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
If it sounds different than a mere resistor, then it probably is different.
I am not so sure it does that much different from a resistor, well they use it to convert the voltage and to enable voltage selection for different loads, but besides that it behaves not that differently from a resistor. It adds some distortion that the resistor does not, but I am pretty sure the change in output impedance is the dominant factor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
Remember that if your "theoretical model of a phenomenon" cannot account for an observation, the question is not necessarily whether the observation is flawed, but perhaps the model itself. -At least it probably leaves out something important.
All theoretical models are flawed to a certain degree. My description was a quite simplified version so it is not at all meant to be a complete description of a particular amplifiers behavior.
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Old 29th June 2012, 11:33 PM   #4645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snickers-is View Post

I am not so sure it does that much different from a resistor, well they use it to convert the voltage and to enable voltage selection for different loads, but besides that it behaves not that differently from a resistor. It adds some distortion that the resistor does not, but I am pretty sure the change in output impedance is the dominant factor.
If that is really the only thing to it, then MAC waste a humongous amount of money on something with no other purpose but to make the amp worse.

-Expensive and bad solutions seldom stand the test of time

Have you ever tried to put a resistor on an ampīs output?
I guess that you have limited experimental experience regarding the audible effects of adding resistance to solid state amps...

-To me it can in no way explain why tube amps with comparatively high output resistance can have guts that no SS with a similar output resistance can achieve. (SS amps can do different things to tube amps, but generally rely on having much lower O/P resistance to sound good (This is what interests me).

My humble guess is that there is a lot more into it than what you claim, and I believe that is exactly where we agree to disagree and from where our discussion will lead no where

cheers,

Last edited by Juhleren; 29th June 2012 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 29th June 2012, 11:50 PM   #4646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
If that is really the only thing to it, then MAC waste a humongous amount of money on something with no other purpose but to make the amp worse.
Are you suggesting there is more to it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
-Expensive and bad solutions seldom stand the test of time
Well we are talking about the audio industry here? An industry where you can purchase an outdated consumer BD player for 100 Euro, put it in a pretty-ish enclosure and sell it along for 100 000 Euro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
Have you ever tried to put a resistor on ampīs output?
I guess that you have limited experimental experience regarding the effect of adding resistance to solid state amps...
I have done both simulations and measurements on a lot of such configurations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
-To me it can in no way explain why tube amps with comparatively high output resistance can have guts that no SS with a similar output resistance can achieve. (SS amps can do different things to tube amps, but generally rely on having much lower O/P resistance to sound good (This is what interests me).
There are at least two explainations to that. One is that you seldom see a SS amp with a natural output impedance close to the one in a tube amp. The other one is that the tubes does things pretty differently compared to a transistor. So when both the topology and the working components are very different there is no reason to expect them to behave identically either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
My humble guess is that there is a lot more into it than what you claim, and I believe that is exactly where we agree to disagree and from where our discussion will leave no where

cheers,
The McIntosh amps and a traditional SS amp are not that different. Comparing the Mc to an SS amp with a transformer is pretty relevant, but a tube amp is pretty far away from this. I think discussing what a transformer does to the output in general and what it does in a 1:1 (or close) config is two completely different discussions and should be treated so.
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Old 30th June 2012, 12:13 AM   #4647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snickers-is View Post
I have done both simulations and measurements on a lot of such configurations.

- without any listening at all?


There are at least two explainations to that. One is that you seldom see a SS amp with a natural output impedance close to the one in a tube amp. The other one is that the tubes does things pretty differently compared to a transistor. So when both the topology and the working components are very different there is no reason to expect them to behave identically either.
Now this might have potential merit.
Besides the obvious, would be so kind to elaborate on this?
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Old 30th June 2012, 03:40 AM   #4648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snickers-is View Post
...There are at least two explainations to that. One is that you seldom see a SS amp with a natural output impedance close to the one in a tube amp. The other one is that the tubes does things pretty differently compared to a transistor. So when both the topology and the working components are very different there is no reason to expect them to behave identically either.
I think another aspect for transformer-coupled amps of all flavors is the parallel capacitance of the xformer, which I think causes overshoot and is a source of some sparkle and what many call "microdynamics." The slow and sweet but weighty Mac sound has been a signature for a very long time. I also think that a beefy OTL tube amp like Atma-Sphere has a (lovely) sound more like a fine SS amp than it does to most tube amps, IMO.

Nothing in this world sounds as good as accuracy, provided it exists throughout the chain. I shake my head at engineers who mix and master with Mac amps or other euphonic pieces, as tools they are inferior and with great sources they add their characteristic sound, and it bothers when I want to hear the source alone.
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Old 30th June 2012, 09:34 AM   #4649
omainik is offline omainik  Austria
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dear all,

please give me an advice how to track a problem with one of my ncore modules.

i use four of them with switching PSUs in an active speaker since months without issues. during a music session one of the modules switched off.

when applying power, the module switches on and immediately off again. an other ncore module in the same position works without issues.

any idea?
did someone else experience a failing module?

kind regards,
peter
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Old 30th June 2012, 09:40 AM   #4650
Julf is offline Julf  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omainik View Post
when applying power, the module switches on and immediately off again. an other ncore module in the same position works without issues.
Sounds like the output is shorted. A lead that has come off and is shorting?
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