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Old 24th June 2011, 11:54 AM   #211
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Is this nonlinearity that bad ? Remeber that you introduce the integrator in the forward path and it is mainly there to increase loop gain not to introduce linearity in simple words.
Apart from that - what you dislike about the circuit might as well be optimised with some tricks.


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Charles
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Old 24th June 2011, 11:56 AM   #212
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I've also considered the micropower voltage references (aka. shunt regultors) in opamps feedback to get sharper cutoff.
However the switch in the feedback path makes the integrator "forget all the past", which makes the clipping recovery a bit claner anyway.
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Old 24th June 2011, 11:56 AM   #213
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...or is it already granted in NL & EP but not in US???
I am not sure. Nomenclature of patent numbers is not my field of expertise...
And definitely I am not interested at all in making headache to Bruno.
He is contributing a lot to audio tech in general and to the DIY community.
I am glad that Bruno shows this topic to us and discloses one or the other idea at least.
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Old 24th June 2011, 12:06 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post
Is this nonlinearity that bad ? Remeber that you introduce the integrator in the forward path and it is mainly there to increase loop gain not to introduce linearity in simple words.
Apart from that - what you dislike about the circuit might as well be optimised with some tricks.


Regards

Charles
...erhm, well... for me it is bad if my integrator shows ten times the k3 of my switching stage. Even if I get the nice benefit of higher loop gain at lower frequencies- I do not want to pay for that with a dominant degradation of the forward path.
So far I did not find tricks to bring down the zeners in the feedback to comparable distortion levels like clamping the OP amp output to GND or a ref.
Am I blind?
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Old 24th June 2011, 12:18 PM   #215
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Instead of Zeners you may also use "normal" diodes in antiparallel configuration. Since you will need more than one antiparallel pair in series in order to achieve a higher clipping voltage you can shunt a node between two pairs to ground with a reasonably sized resistor. This should improve low-level linearity. I assume that the idea is not new - but maybe I just gave away a patentable idea (well - wouldn't be for the first time anyway).

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Charles
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Old 24th June 2011, 12:23 PM   #216
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...agreed, this should be better than the zeners.
Furtheron we might use BJTs (base connected to collector) instead of diodes.
But by the end of the day we start to throw around with ten components instead of two zeners. And I am not confident that its distortion level could rival the zeners from the OP amp output to GND.
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Old 24th June 2011, 12:47 PM   #217
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If we were all in the pub I'd probably be a lot more forthright because I'd know who's listening. But anything I write here can be read by anyone. Most people who turn up at the bottom of the page ("Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 8 (6 members and 2 guests)") don't ever post anything so who knows who they are.

It's not too hard to get your head around the principles of patent law, but you do need a patent lawyer to explain things. The usefulness of patents is generally overstated. Protection isn't automatic - you still have to take copycats to court yourself. A patent is just evidence that you were there first. Take out a patent only if you are prepared to defend it. It does have some business value in that it shows someone's been checking, to the best of their ability, that the technology you're selling is truly your own. But the best protection is still staying ahead of the competition and making sure that if someone gets inspired by an idea you've had, they do so only when they see it in mass production.

About granting. It takes ages getting a patent granted, and it's done country by country. However, if you apply in Holland first for instance and in the US only a year later, the USPTO will not consider publications in the intervening time as "detrimental to novelty". What matters is the date of first filing in any country. That way you don't have to sink a huge amount of cash into the process in one go.

About what makes valid stuff for patenting. Every invention is based on something that went before. For instance, there are diodes in Ncore. Would it help to say "well DUH you're just using diodes to solve the problem. Diodes are old hat"? That's obviously ridiculous but the very same thing goes for more complicated standard techniques applied creatively. Integrators have been saturated before. That's not the point. What patent examiners look for is whether the sum of the parts is a new and unexpected way to solve a problem. These criteria are called novelty and inventive step respectively.

That's about all the patent banter I've got energy for.
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Old 24th June 2011, 01:26 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Bruno Putzeys View Post
If we were all in the pub I'd probably be a lot more forthright
May I propose a nice one in Munich?
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Old 24th June 2011, 01:41 PM   #219
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Berne is much nicer than Munich !!! ;-)

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Charles
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Old 24th June 2011, 01:50 PM   #220
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Oh, Charles, of all people I should have expected you to propose a wine bar in Stellenbosch.
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