Go Back   Home > Forums > Commercial Sector > Vendor Forums > Vendor's Bazaar

Vendor's Bazaar Commercial Vendors large & small hawking their wares

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 23rd June 2011, 02:56 PM   #201
sek is offline sek  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
sek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Berlin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno Putzeys View Post
After I get a TV.
Postpone that as long as possible!
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2011, 03:21 PM   #202
AP2 is online now AP2  Italy
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Italy
Quote:
Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post

haha.. nice, but there are many other reasons to laugh... ;-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2011, 06:29 PM   #203
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Munich
Default Stopping the integrator during clipping....

..identical headaches in self oscillating designs and clocked as well...
The struggle with the integrator during clipping catches us all.

@ Bruno:
Figure 5 of your patent shows three embodyments of the integrator.
5A, zenering the cap: Obviously the most traditional solution, but not fortunate regarding distortion. Your excellent distortion values indicate that this is just a theoretic option, but not your real solution...
5B, shorting the cap: I guess - even if done not by a hard short but resistive, this solution might be not always act perfectly calm.
5C, disconnecting the integrator from the input:
That's temptating ! Do you need any kind of a parallel signal path?
Or do you fully rely on the information of the deviation detection circuit and simply reconnect the integrator again as soon as the deviation detection circuit 'thinks' that the output would now/soon go back below clipping? ....starting to love this idea....

BTW:
Instead of clamping the cap with zeners like in figure 5A, is there a reason
not to clamp the output of the integrator stage towards GND or against reference levels? In this configuration the low output impedance of the OP-Amp circuit theoretically keeps diode related distortions low until the voltage really comes close to the clamping voltage.
(Or if possible: Simply adjusting the OP amp supply, so that the integrator cannot run to far away).
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2011, 07:03 PM   #204
diyAudio Member
 
darkfenriz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Warsaw
If the clip detector and a switch are fast enough, one could reset the integrator's memory once a PWM cycle close to clipping, with varying duty of integrate-reset actions (one-cycle modulator style) killing the (1/2piLC) ripple whenever it happens.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2011, 09:20 PM   #205
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Munich
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkfenriz View Post
If the clip detector and a switch are fast enough, one could reset the integrator's memory once a PWM cycle close to clipping, with varying duty of integrate-reset actions (one-cycle modulator style) killing the (1/2piLC) ripple whenever it happens.
I guess your proposal relates to the version 5B, right?
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd June 2011, 09:40 PM   #206
diyAudio Member
 
darkfenriz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Warsaw
yes
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2011, 06:47 AM   #207
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: BE/NL/RW/ZA
You'll all understand I'm not going to disclose details so if I respond (very!) selectively to discussions about the guts of the amp as relates to the patent drawings that's entirely intentional.

CH: Clamping the output of an op amp amounts to shorting it. You could diode clamp the high z node of a folded cascode op amp but then they would make it distort quite heavily again.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2011, 06:55 AM   #208
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Quote:
Or if possible: Simply adjusting the OP amp supply, so that the integrator cannot run to far away
What would be the difference between this and the diode clipper - apart from the fact that the diode clipper doesn't saturate "internally" (and would therefore behaves better) ?

IMO at least the diode-clipper and the reset with the switch are not actually novel since they have been used in noise-shapers before. Maybe the fact that these are used in a non delta-sigma style modulator is novel enoght - who knows ?

Regards

Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2011, 10:59 AM   #209
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Munich
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno Putzeys View Post
You'll all understand I'm not going to disclose details so if I respond (very!) selectively to discussions about the guts of the amp as relates to the patent drawings that's entirely intentional.
...to bad that we are touching confidential know how which you are making your living of...
But I definitely love the clear way of your answer - already noticed similar upright comments on commercial reality from you earlier in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno Putzeys View Post
CH: Clamping the output of an op amp amounts to shorting it.
Obviously yes. But most types are designed to handle not just clamping, but even a fully shorted output for unlimited time. The chip designer has spend some love to this feature (at least he copied the building block... ) - wouldn't it be a pity if nobody wants to use it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th June 2011, 11:19 AM   #210
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Munich
Quote:
Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post
What would be the difference between this and the diode clipper - apart from the fact that the diode clipper doesn't saturate "internally" (and would therefore behaves better) ?
The zener clipper in the feedback is adding the worst amount of distortion, because in this configuration already few micro amps in the diode do massively influence the output. Means if you use two 4V7 zeners in the feedback, it will dominate the over all distortions already at 2V may be even earlier. If the zeners are placed from output to ground the distortions remain low until the diode current reaches the mA range and really starts to clamp.
The saturating limitation by the supply also is by far more 'sharp' than the zener feedback, and it is for free. In fact the clipping recovery of modern OP amps is fast enough for usual integrators in class D amps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post
IMO at least the diode-clipper and the reset with the switch are not actually4novel since they have been used in noise-shapers before. Maybe the fact that these are used in a non delta-sigma style modulator is novel enoght - who knows ?

Regards

Charles
Well, patent laws and interpretation do not fit into my simple brain.
Without a lawyer and a powerful company I would not even start to file a single patent.
If you have time and money - feel free to fight Bruno's patent. It is filed, but not granted by now.

For me at least the idea around figure 5C is new and really nice!

Last edited by ChocoHolic; 24th June 2011 at 11:27 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hypex problem, who can help Hansms Class D 9 18th August 2013 06:49 AM
Hypex steveww Class D 14 18th November 2010 01:44 PM
Question for those who have tried hypex smps with hypex modules avian Class D 12 3rd March 2009 09:30 AM
Hypex UcD 180AD + signal wires, Power Supply ST, Hypex Transformer TR100A c10h12n2 Swap Meet 7 7th July 2007 03:55 PM
FS: Hypex UcD 400/180AD, hypex toroid Archmage Swap Meet 4 14th November 2006 04:23 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:20 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2