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Old 20th June 2011, 11:06 PM   #151
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cyclecamper, I do get your point in why not ask for more if it costs the same, but increasing the tolerated voltage of the used components and implementing more of them usually adds greatly to the costs as I get it. Look at capacitors, you often pay for the physical size and have to choose high voltage/low capacity or low voltage/high capacity for the same size and price. If we could get 1000W for the same price of a 100W with the same sound, we would of course all like that, but unfortunately amps are not just computers -to me at least... What my experience tells me is that the power supply is where the real head room resigns. My ncc200 amp is around 90W/8@ channel with a 700VA toroid per channel sounds much more powerful than my ICEPower amp with 250W/8@ channel although it can deliver more than 40amps per channel and deliver 500W into 4 ohm per channel. My feeling is that its because it "only" has a 440VA toroid shared between the two channels. Before this version i had a 2x125W@8ohm version of the ICEpower and it sounded better and more delicate than the bigger one. Why? -Probably because the increased voltage and current handling somehow sacrified something audible...

Point is that I rather want a cheaper and probably more delicately sounding module with an expensive and massive PS than a more expensive module with higher power rating and then spend less on the PS(which to my knowledge is the more important part). After all these are the top end modules, hence for most people they would probably be most valuable as fullrange or mid and high frequency applications, where the standard UCD can still make plenty of sense driving power hungry sub applications. Still I would prefer a large high efficiency sub (+95db/2.83V) with large cones, as they donīt suffer from power compression as the design can produce loads of output almost without moving or heating the coils at all.

The point that most class-D amps should be rated for the double power to compare with linear designs may just aswell prove my point; the larger and better PS sounds better and more powerful no matter what the output specs says. Too many amps are designed to provide impressive specs rather than avoid modulation in the power supply and thereby in the output stage aswell. That is why high current/low impedance capabilities are appreciated because that means that a well designed PS will come to its right when speakers dynamic loads demand so.

No need to go into psychology, its just audio and different experiences and preferences

BTW if you refered to me in your quotation, I never claimed that we donīt want more than a 100W module, 200, 400, or 4000W is fine too, but if it spoils the fun as in too elevated costs, then why? If there is no real or relative considerable cost reduction between a 180 and a 400 version then please go for the larger one, but keep it as simple and clean as possible for best possible sound and affordable cost. Also bridging two modules where the current capabilities are not reached, you gain 4 times the power, not 2 times as you wrote (double voltage and double current) How many dBīs does that really leave up to a 1000W module then?
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Old 20th June 2011, 11:08 PM   #152
cab is offline cab
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Better to have too much than too little....I would like to see at least 500W into 8 ohms....
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Old 21st June 2011, 02:01 AM   #153
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Arc weld? no...

I plug the signal generator into the input and in bridge mode I can run various 120-volt devices directly from the output, with independent control over frequency and voltage. Gives me very fine control of the washing machine's "gentle" cycle for my delicates. Speed control for the table saw.

Patty says the triangle or sawtooth waves are harsher but more stimulating than the sine...and she seems to know the Fs of intimate anatomy...wonder what 120-volt toys she's been plugging in...
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Old 21st June 2011, 02:03 AM   #154
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500 watts into 8 ohms analog often handles the same peaks as approx. 1000 watts switching mode, so maybe we're asking for the same thing.
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Old 21st June 2011, 03:03 AM   #155
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Default Mr. Putzeys

I am looking to build an amp for myself in the next year, looks like ncore will be the way to go.

For the DIY module 300/8 ohms, 600/4 ohms, with gobs of current for even lower loads will be entirely adequate, and will suffice to fullfill your needs for differentiation to the commercial module.
I love the all discrete idea, and dedicated SMPS. Also would like to see gain around 26-27 dB, and high input impedance (100K+).

I think commercial manufacturers will find plenty of ways to differentiate their products using the commercial module, especially if you allow them to desing their own input buffers/power supplies.

Very excited about your developments, thanks so much for making innovative great sounding technology available to all.
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Old 21st June 2011, 04:28 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrows View Post
with gobs of current for even lower loads will be entirely adequate, [...], and dedicated SMPS.
I think a dedicated SMPS would be very nice. I've not yet tried an SMPS to power an amp. But if I build a higher power ncore the same way I did my dual mono UcD400 (linear supplies) I might not be able to lift it.

I think this may very well be the time to try SMPS. I didn't entirely trust SMPS back when I built my UcD amp. And Hypex were just releasing the first of their SMPSs. I've hear enough good in the meantime that I think it's worth a shot. Bruno certainly speaks highly of the combo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclecamper View Post
500 watts into 8 ohms analog often handles the same peaks as approx. 1000 watts switching mode,
I think the word you are looking for is "linear" (though I know what you mean) All amps are analog

I'm not really sure why you say class-D cannot supply high current transient peaks? (I'm not aware of any reason for that) In any amp, linear or switching, it is most often the power supply that limits the performance. Bruno stated sometime back in this thread that for the nc1200 "The current limiter kicks in around 38A" -- into 2 ohms, that is 2800W

Maybe your experience with other class-D was with smps that had limited supply capability (or other issues..?) Most commercial amps have all sorts of compromises and trade offs.

If the "DIY" models arrive with too little power, maybe you could make a deal with Bruno for a few nc1200's
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Old 21st June 2011, 06:20 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Juhleren View Post
Also bridging two modules where the current capabilities are not reached, you gain 4 times the power, not 2 times as you wrote (double voltage and double current) How many dBīs does that really leave up to a 1000W module then?
"...are not reached..." You know better that to try to fool me, just after you request low-impedance capabiity for bridging. Doubling the hardware does not magically create 4 times the power output bridged unless the load impedance was way too high to begin with and remains the same, which it should not.

Yes, I want it all...voltage please, with good damping factor and current to spare. Bridge that LOL!

Best regards, and of course no offense intended, just one opinion. Now I return you to your more normal programming...
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Old 21st June 2011, 07:30 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by barrows View Post
For the DIY module 300/8 ohms, 600/4 ohms, with gobs of current for even lower loads will be entirely adequate, and will suffice to fullfill your needs for differentiation to the commercial module.
I love the all discrete idea, and dedicated SMPS. Also would like to see gain around 26-27 dB, and high input impedance (100K+).
Barrows, you speak to my heart.

Btw, I believe most people who are happy with their 180s (and are not tri-amping nor have any "exotic" 99dB+ loudspeakers) have probably never heard the 400s on the same setup.
I understand people recommending lower power levels probably do so in order to keep costs at a reasonable level but it should be clear this is not going to be a budget offering to begin with. This is not going to be a 200 euro module, no matter what (hell, UcD180HG with HxR is 200 Euros already). Bruno has already mentioned the design is too complicated to allow for any real cost savings by lowering the power levels.
In any case, the updated UcD modules will still be there, performing even better than before, to fill that gap.

Last edited by TheShaman; 21st June 2011 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 21st June 2011, 09:44 AM   #159
sek is offline sek  Germany
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Originally Posted by TheShaman View Post
I understand people recommending lower power levels probably do so in order to keep costs at a reasonable level
I figure that DIYers also keep amplifier power levels lower than neccessary due to fear of too much power, voltage, dissipation, etc.

It should be mentioned that the UCD modules are extremely safe and reliable to use.

Moreover, there is no such thing as too much dynamic range (i.e. power headroom to the speakers).

Cheers,
Sebastian.
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Old 21st June 2011, 10:48 AM   #160
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Moreover, there is no such thing as too much dynamic range (i.e. power headroom to the speakers).

I couldn't agree more. Lots of dynamic range keeps me fixing original Quad ESL treble panels and has paid for several vacations for me.

Sheldon
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