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Old 2nd February 2011, 09:08 AM   #41
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Edit: CSD is 7V. According to the datasheet it will be in reset if its 0.3x V+, wich is 0.3 * 20V = 6V :'( I'm sure it's a VCC problem. Can i connect 12V with respect to ground to VCC or does it really has to be V- + 12?
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Old 2nd February 2011, 10:17 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boudemaniak View Post
But the feedback is placed before the low pass filter. I thought this shouldnt be a problem.. But ok, i'll add the LPF and a power resistor.

And capacitors should not be placed over the drain and source then? Man, what was i wrong I'll try it now
It shouldn't matter, but yet again your amp is not working yet. I can't recall if started my with no load (probably did, since I forgot to connect the load, but at that point my amp was already working)

About capacitors, they are part of the supply not amp itself. The way I think you have them is, that (if we look at top capacitor) capacitors - is always being/trying to be switched from float to v-(same is going on with source of the upper fet)

And just that alone, capacitor will see double voltage (from v+ to v-), it will be charged/discharged with high freq. which alone means that high current will be present,...
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Old 2nd February 2011, 10:24 AM   #43
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for IC you need +/- 5v(can't be more then +/-6v) (for input section) and you will need 10-12v above v- for gate drive. I'm not sure if you need it, but there is one more, from v+ that is charging upper capacitor right away

CSD pin can't be more/less then Vss or Vaa (it can be Vaa + forward drop of diode, and forward drop of diode lower then vss)
CSD is part of overcurrent, right? and that is for some ratio lower then Vaa
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Last edited by luka; 2nd February 2011 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 2nd February 2011, 10:40 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
About capacitors, they are part of the supply not amp itself. The way I think you have them is, that (if we look at top capacitor) capacitors - is always being/trying to be switched from float to v-(same is going on with source of the upper fet)

And just that alone, capacitor will see double voltage (from v+ to v-), it will be charged/discharged with high freq. which alone means that high current will be present,...
Ok, so now i connected the decoupling capacitors from V- to ground, V+ to ground and V+ to V-. No problems here i guess.



Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
for IC you need +/- 5v(can't be more then +/-6v) (for input section) and you will need 10-12v above v- for gate drive. I'm not sure if you need it, but there is one more, from v+ that is charging upper capacitor right away

CSD pin can't be more/less then Vss or Vaa (it can be Vaa + forward drop of diode, and forward drop of diode lower then vss)
CSD is part of overcurrent, right? and that is for some ratio lower then Vaa
What do you means with input = 5V? For some reason, the 12V (with reference to V-) is now drawing about 300mA and the chip is getting really hot. This is without connecting the VAA and VSS! Im very very sure that i conencted everything right. CSD is the shutdown capacitor. It should be around 0.7x VAA, but its still 0.3x VAA so that means its still in reset?

When adding the V+ and V-, it will directly go to its max current so the chip is opening both fets at the same time for some reason (=short)
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Old 2nd February 2011, 10:53 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boudemaniak View Post
Ok, so now i connected the decoupling capacitors from V- to ground, V+ to ground and V+ to V-. No problems here i guess.
Right.

Quote:
What do you means with input = 5V? For some reason, the 12V (with reference to V-) is now drawing about 300mA and the chip is getting really hot. This is without connecting the VAA and VSS! Im very very sure that i conencted everything right. CSD is the shutdown capacitor. It should be around 0.7x VAA, but its still 0.3x VAA so that means its still in reset?
Well look at this ic as two parts, one in input modulator, and other is fet driver.
So, for input (modulator) you need +/-5v and ground
For fet driver, you need well whole supply voltage, but more important then that, you need that 12v for fets. Depends on how big your boost capacitors are, 300mA is a bit high, since you only need to refill caps
If anything, you always need vss and vaa! body won't work without brains.

Quote:
When adding the V+ and V-, it will directly go to its max current so the chip is opening both fets at the same time for some reason (=short)
Amp can always try to work with some minimum voltage, I mean this amp will work with wide range of voltages, this you will see when you will turn off the supply and only caps will hold the voltage, as long as they will
but amp will still work



One problem I had, was that I had +/-5v and I had main voltage... but gate driver didn't have enough... this made ic to work is let say safe mode, sound was distorted... (I had too little current to charge lower/upper fet drives). As soon as I provided enough, sound was clear
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Last edited by luka; 2nd February 2011 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 2nd February 2011, 11:10 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
Well look at this ic as two parts, one in input modulator, and other is fet driver.
OK, that one i understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
So, for input (modulator) you need +/-5v and ground
For fet driver, you need well whole supply voltage, but more important then that, you need that 12v for fets. Depends on how big your boost capacitors are, 300mA is a bit high, since you only need to refill caps
If anything, you always need vss and vaa! body won't work without brains.
Ok, but where is that 5V coming from? Only the VSS, VAA and 12V are entering the chip. And i never saw a driver drawing so much current and getting so hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
Amp can always try to work with some minimum voltage, I mean this amp will work with wide range of voltages, this you will see when you will turn off the supply and only caps will hold the voltage, as long as they will
but amp will still work



One problem I had, was that I had +/-5v and I had main voltage... but gate driver didn't have enough... this made ic to work is let say safe mode, sound was distorted... (I had too little current to charge lower/upper fet drives). As soon as I provided enough, sound was clear
My V+ and V- are +-20V. The load is a 100Ohms resistor so 1A for V+ and 1A for V- should be more than enough but still the voltage will drop to zero. I understand it wants as much current as possible but this is rediculous :P I didn't even got an outputsignal..

ps: i really appreciate it you are trying to help me
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Old 2nd February 2011, 11:26 AM   #47
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Quote:
Ok, but where is that 5V coming from? Only the VSS, VAA and 12V are entering the chip. And i never saw a driver drawing so much current and getting so hot.
well for me, since I didn't want to have too many supply voltages, it comes from main +/- voltage by means of drop reisistor and zener.
So from + over resistor and zener to gnd and from there over zener over resistor to -. Between each zener and resistor you have voltage that is high as much as zener is rated (In my case I have 5v6 zener).


Quote:
My V+ and V- are +-20V. The load is a 100Ohms resistor so 1A for V+ and 1A for V- should be more than enough but still the voltage will drop to zero.
That really does sound like a short. Have you measured with DMM if you have short on any supply line?


Quote:
ps: i really appreciate it you are trying to help me
No problem, will get it to work somehow

You could measure some voltages for me:

Just quote this part and add values that you measure:


voltage between pin 10 and 12 :
voltage between pin 1 and 2 :
voltage between pin 2 and 6 :
voltage between pin 13 and 15 :
voltage between pin 5 and 6 :
voltage between pin 8 and 12 :
voltage between pin 7 and 10 :

This for now
Do you have scope to look for waveforms when time comes?
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Old 2nd February 2011, 11:28 AM   #48
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Hmm..

When i remove the FET connected to V- and the output (low side output) The chip only draws 10mA (like it should) and the short is gone. When i put in a new one i have the same error. Same goes for a new IRS2092.

Im beginning to wonder is i don't have to use a P-channel since we are playing with negative voltages. Every fet has a parallel diode and when it is this diode is connected with anode (source) to V- and kathode (drain) to the output, it will be a short?
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Old 2nd February 2011, 11:31 AM   #49
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What?? I hope you didn't use P channel!!!
This is HI side driver also, that this means is, that it driver ONLY N channel fets, which are far better then P.
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Old 2nd February 2011, 11:45 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
well for me, since I didn't want to have too many supply voltages, it comes from main +/- voltage by means of drop reisistor and zener.
So from + over resistor and zener to gnd and from there over zener over resistor to -. Between each zener and resistor you have voltage that is high as much as zener is rated (In my case I have 5v6 zener).
Ah, i see now that internally a 6V zener is connected to VAA and VSS so the 2.7k resistor is the dropper resistor..

Quote:
Originally Posted by luka View Post
No problem, will get it to work somehow

You could measure some voltages for me:

Just quote this part and add values that you measure:


voltage between pin 10 and 12 : 11,97V
voltage between pin 1 and 2 : 6.3V
voltage between pin 2 and 6 : -6.26V
voltage between pin 13 and 15 : 0.26V
voltage between pin 5 and 6 : 3V
voltage between pin 8 and 12 : -8V
voltage between pin 7 and 10 : 4.2V

This for now
Do you have scope to look for waveforms when time comes?
Ofcourse i have one... ready and willing

edit: this is when i removed the broken fet

Last edited by Boudemaniak; 2nd February 2011 at 12:01 PM.
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