hi.
>Be serious, don't make us laugh (well, make us laugh if you want )
What the pictures show, rated in standard terms, is a 2x300W rms into 8 ohm and 2x500W rms into 4 ohm amplifier.>
i think i agree.
fredo where is power factor correction (pfc) in your design?
dont you think a high power amp for proaudio use should have this?
best rgds - karsten madsen - cadaudio.dk / digiamps.com
>Be serious, don't make us laugh (well, make us laugh if you want )
What the pictures show, rated in standard terms, is a 2x300W rms into 8 ohm and 2x500W rms into 4 ohm amplifier.>
i think i agree.
fredo where is power factor correction (pfc) in your design?
dont you think a high power amp for proaudio use should have this?
best rgds - karsten madsen - cadaudio.dk / digiamps.com
km said:
I do too. They're rated from the perspective of what the power supply can deliver, for a limited time period, which is good information from the POV of the power supply if that's what you're selling. Usually though for amplifiers people are actually interested in the power that's available at the load, otherwise by that convention we'd probably all be alot more interested in class A than we are.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but rating in such a way is likely to at least double the given power rating.
Sorry KM we dont need PFC for certification in Canada and USA...You can laugh as much as you whant, but compared to lot of manufacturer (Crown, QSC and now Crest), my power amp provide more ''real'' watts than competitor. Just for an example, a crest LT2000 do not provide more than 800Watts per channel in 4 ohms at begining of clipping, and 500Watts per channel at 0.1% distortion....And thermal shutdown occur in about 3 minute at full power. A crown K2 rated at 1250W per channel only provide 950W on the bench, and best a QSC PLX3402 just put out e tinny 500W per channel into 4 ohms...Whant more or you think that my bench is uncalibrated? My news pre-production prototype provide a CONTINUOUS 1500watts per channel in 2 ohms in pure resitive load for about 15 minutes before thermal trip occure.
So now I can laugh about Hypex, Ice Power and CAD audio power amp supposely rated for full power all the time with a small aluminium block of 1X2 inch....And from a lot of review, they sound disgusting at clipping. Another thing to take in consideration for pro audio...I never see a sound man that not drive all power amp in sever clipping at the end of a show...
Last thing I think that a lot of people have not understand from now is that speaker is a kind of capacitive, inductive and resistive load, so real power delivered to load is VA....You will always measure less Watts than VA in a load, but VA is real power provided to load, somebody will finish to realize this???? Or amplifier is just design to drive resistive load in a bench at full power?
If just someone realize that power amp was for speaker and play music, not for spec or long term RMS ratting, lot more of good product will be utilised by professional! Just talk about PowerSoft and all other pionner in that field...
So continue to laugh and make power amp for spec and pure resistive load driven continuously for long time with PFC because you dont have enaught power in your outlet!
Sorry for this reply, but lot of people did not realise about what they talk....And I know, I have lot to learn again!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
So now I can laugh about Hypex, Ice Power and CAD audio power amp supposely rated for full power all the time with a small aluminium block of 1X2 inch....And from a lot of review, they sound disgusting at clipping. Another thing to take in consideration for pro audio...I never see a sound man that not drive all power amp in sever clipping at the end of a show...
Last thing I think that a lot of people have not understand from now is that speaker is a kind of capacitive, inductive and resistive load, so real power delivered to load is VA....You will always measure less Watts than VA in a load, but VA is real power provided to load, somebody will finish to realize this???? Or amplifier is just design to drive resistive load in a bench at full power?
If just someone realize that power amp was for speaker and play music, not for spec or long term RMS ratting, lot more of good product will be utilised by professional! Just talk about PowerSoft and all other pionner in that field...
So continue to laugh and make power amp for spec and pure resistive load driven continuously for long time with PFC because you dont have enaught power in your outlet!
Sorry for this reply, but lot of people did not realise about what they talk....And I know, I have lot to learn again!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
OK, I got the point here, that we must read carefully the specification before buy the amps. That's it.
BTW OOT, I myself never shocked with KW rated amps at 1 ohm or 2 ohm, Why? I never connect my load less than 4 ohm, because of most of arrangement on stage is one speaker for one line amps, or two speaker parallel. Are we need big amps with low impedance?
BTW OOT, I myself never shocked with KW rated amps at 1 ohm or 2 ohm, Why? I never connect my load less than 4 ohm, because of most of arrangement on stage is one speaker for one line amps, or two speaker parallel. Are we need big amps with low impedance?
I think the reason we prefer or are attracted to "supposed" continuous sine ratings is because it speaks well to the ruggedness of the design. If it can handle that, then you know it's not penny pinched engineered and likely to fail the very day the warranty runs dry.
Kartino, I think 1 ohm load testing /ratings is useful given that speakers vary in impedance and it's good to know the amp can actually deliver in such a case, rather than clip, or go into protection.
Kartino, I think 1 ohm load testing /ratings is useful given that speakers vary in impedance and it's good to know the amp can actually deliver in such a case, rather than clip, or go into protection.
Your right classd4sure, but unfortunatly, lot of (big) company dont reach at all the rated power they announce, specialy QSC, so if you trust more a ''continuously'' rated power with less power than the spec, let go! But just think that if they put anything for power measurement, what about the other spec?
Yes you can trust a continuously rated power amp, but by experience, class D rated at 1/3 of maximum power stay always cooler than analog amp...Lot of discotheque and rave use my amp and analog amp and I can told you that my amp is always warm at the end of the night (or day for the rave) and analog amp will be extremly hot....So what about this if you run amp at 100% power rating??? Semiconductor can go over 150 celcius at the die so??????
Any explanation for this? Have you ever work with a pro audio kit, or just play at home with home amplifier? I have 15 years experience in pro audio installation and configuration, I have learn a lot on what pro whant and dont whant, and better, I have try a lot and a lot of power amp, I can only told you at this time I only trust the CA serie of crest and the old QSC 3000 serie, from now that the only real ''spected'' amplifier. I never see nothing except these amp with real spec. So now, one thing I do with my company, I try to always be higher than what customer expect, and that's why I sold as much amplifier to replace competitor amplifier in club and rave....
Finaly, have understand what I talk about when I talk about VA deliver to the load or you still think that watts are more effective than VA TO THE load?
Have a nice day classd4sure! When did you come to montreal? I wish to meet you!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
Yes you can trust a continuously rated power amp, but by experience, class D rated at 1/3 of maximum power stay always cooler than analog amp...Lot of discotheque and rave use my amp and analog amp and I can told you that my amp is always warm at the end of the night (or day for the rave) and analog amp will be extremly hot....So what about this if you run amp at 100% power rating??? Semiconductor can go over 150 celcius at the die so??????
Any explanation for this? Have you ever work with a pro audio kit, or just play at home with home amplifier? I have 15 years experience in pro audio installation and configuration, I have learn a lot on what pro whant and dont whant, and better, I have try a lot and a lot of power amp, I can only told you at this time I only trust the CA serie of crest and the old QSC 3000 serie, from now that the only real ''spected'' amplifier. I never see nothing except these amp with real spec. So now, one thing I do with my company, I try to always be higher than what customer expect, and that's why I sold as much amplifier to replace competitor amplifier in club and rave....
Finaly, have understand what I talk about when I talk about VA deliver to the load or you still think that watts are more effective than VA TO THE load?
Have a nice day classd4sure! When did you come to montreal? I wish to meet you!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
Fof test, 1 ohm, yes we need for very low frequency behaviour.
The problem is that most of people will say: "woow big amps, coool!" because only see the first page of the brochure. But OK if fredos said that most of pro manufacturer claim their power rating with same way, then we must read carefully for every line in specification. I thiks that the manufacturer already prepare for legal things. So there is no complain anymore. Lucky for sound engineer who know that!
I agree with Crest if the good on stage amps, (QSC? hate complex one!) how compared with yours fredos?
The problem is that most of people will say: "woow big amps, coool!" because only see the first page of the brochure. But OK if fredos said that most of pro manufacturer claim their power rating with same way, then we must read carefully for every line in specification. I thiks that the manufacturer already prepare for legal things. So there is no complain anymore. Lucky for sound engineer who know that!
I agree with Crest if the good on stage amps, (QSC? hate complex one!) how compared with yours fredos?
Hello Kartino
On the bench the LT2000 of crest is more powerfull than my small DLS 800 that I rate at 400W/ch at 4 Ohms (versus 800W per channel for the crest at 4 ohms too) but on loudspeaker their is no difference, except that sound is more ''wide'' with the D-Amp. Voice are more in front and instrument is more detailed. The LT2000 versus the DLS 1500 (750W per channel 4 ohms) and the DLS 3000 (1500W per channel into 2 ohms) seem to be lot less powerfull than these 2 D-Amp. The QSC PLX3402 at 500W per channel at 4 ohms on the bench is the most ''lean'' amplifier. It sound agressive, do not have bass at all and sound the less powerfull. The Crown K2 rated at 1250W per channel into 4 ohms with 950Watts on the bench seem as much powerfull than the D-Amp DLS 3000, but unfortunately lean in bass, but these one have the better sound in mid-hi frequency. Is more wide and more definition than all other amp. But for the price, I continue to think that we have the better ratio power/sound quality/price!
What I expect for the lean bass in the Crown is the toroidal transformer....For the QSC is the name on the box
(I hate QSC too...Now that they have a name, they make scrap...) An about the Crest, maybe the design because at +/- 135V, they should have lot more power!
Have a nice day everybody!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
On the bench the LT2000 of crest is more powerfull than my small DLS 800 that I rate at 400W/ch at 4 Ohms (versus 800W per channel for the crest at 4 ohms too) but on loudspeaker their is no difference, except that sound is more ''wide'' with the D-Amp. Voice are more in front and instrument is more detailed. The LT2000 versus the DLS 1500 (750W per channel 4 ohms) and the DLS 3000 (1500W per channel into 2 ohms) seem to be lot less powerfull than these 2 D-Amp. The QSC PLX3402 at 500W per channel at 4 ohms on the bench is the most ''lean'' amplifier. It sound agressive, do not have bass at all and sound the less powerfull. The Crown K2 rated at 1250W per channel into 4 ohms with 950Watts on the bench seem as much powerfull than the D-Amp DLS 3000, but unfortunately lean in bass, but these one have the better sound in mid-hi frequency. Is more wide and more definition than all other amp. But for the price, I continue to think that we have the better ratio power/sound quality/price!
What I expect for the lean bass in the Crown is the toroidal transformer....For the QSC is the name on the box
(I hate QSC too...Now that they have a name, they make scrap...) An about the Crest, maybe the design because at +/- 135V, they should have lot more power!Have a nice day everybody!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
fredos said:Hello Kartino
On the bench the LT2000 of crest is more powerfull than my small DLS 800 that I rate at 400W/ch at 4 Ohms (versus 800W per channel for the crest at 4 ohms too) but on loudspeaker their is no difference, except that sound is more ''wide'' with the D-Amp. Voice are more in front and instrument is more detailed. The LT2000 versus the DLS 1500 (750W per channel 4 ohms) and the DLS 3000 (1500W per channel into 2 ohms) seem to be lot less powerfull than these 2 D-Amp. The QSC PLX3402 at 500W per channel at 4 ohms on the bench is the most ''lean'' amplifier. It sound agressive, do not have bass at all and sound the less powerfull. The Crown K2 rated at 1250W per channel into 4 ohms with 950Watts on the bench seem as much powerfull than the D-Amp DLS 3000, but unfortunately lean in bass, but these one have the better sound in mid-hi frequency. Is more wide and more definition than all other amp. But for the price, I continue to think that we have the better ratio power/sound quality/price!
What I expect for the lean bass in the Crown is the toroidal transformer....For the QSC is the name on the box
Have a nice day everybody!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
Hi Fredos,
You were Absoulutely Right!
If you look at QSC's older designs such as 3800 series, Usa series they were good, but these newer Class-H amps with Switching power supplies were all just a scrap they were selling by manufacturing them in China, RMX[Linear supply],PLX[Switching supply] all sounded harsh....and much contaminated sonics...
Yes, Crest is a little bit different and has some sonics performance edge above these amps...but costs alot...
Whereas in Class-D, if implemented properly , I could say it would outperform many of the Linear High-End amps in that category and the pro-amp segment could be very easily conquered.
The designers [With Knowledge limited to Class-A/AB]who simply donot know how [Or some even donot want to know] to design a good Class-D would simply start to criticise it because the Class-D technology gives them a deadly blow in many areas such as
Less Power-Supply requirements,
LightWeight,
Less Heatsinking,
Absence of Cross-Over distortion,
Outstanding reactive load handling
All these features makes Class-D a perfect choice for High power solutions in Pro-audio segment and even Hi-End.
QSC has also developed a 1.2kW Class-D amp modules for powering up their Active Speakers HPR series...
regards,
K a n w a r
Attachments
Hi Fredos,
Good discussion here, because we talk the fact comparison. For me clear know how figuring your amps. No doubt that you have made long calculation andI believe that you have set your target over them. And for good designer like you seems that no limits for achievement.
Well fredos, good luck with your bussiness.
Good discussion here, because we talk the fact comparison. For me clear know how figuring your amps. No doubt that you have made long calculation andI believe that you have set your target over them. And for good designer like you seems that no limits for achievement.
Well fredos, good luck with your bussiness.
I dont understand your question Classd4sure....Maybe you talk about my old model 1200 rated at 800 watts per channel a 2 ohms with the P channel mosfet? That's the only model I have produce with P channel for simplicity 7 years ago.....Class D with the most powerfull P Channel mosfet (IRF640) for now cannot go over 800W in 2 ohms with a single pair of output. Over this you will pass over the SAO over 125 Celcius at 30% duty cycle use...
This answer your question Classd4sure?
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
This answer your question Classd4sure?
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
Just to let you know that my news design of dual side phase modulation amplifier is now working perfectly, the ''harsh'' sound was now fixed, I just delay a bit the reference PWM signal to get exactly 360 degree of phase shift in feedback (at carrier, not audio signal!)
I push it to 6 Kw into 2 ohms for fews second, but I will rate it at 2 Kw for production. Will built a ''better'' looking unit, because it was in 3D now..
As promised, no heat sink on all 12 IGBT!
Have a nice days!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
PS I will send too fews pick of the second generation of HVI 12kW amplifier, look really nice!
I push it to 6 Kw into 2 ohms for fews second, but I will rate it at 2 Kw for production. Will built a ''better'' looking unit, because it was in 3D now..
As promised, no heat sink on all 12 IGBT!
Have a nice days!
Fredos
www.d-amp.com
PS I will send too fews pick of the second generation of HVI 12kW amplifier, look really nice!
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