My measurements where close to the manufacturers specs.
You can look them up on SB Acoustics :: Home
Gonir did also some comparison on www.audioexcite.com
You can look them up on SB Acoustics :: Home
Gonir did also some comparison on www.audioexcite.com
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They are very close to the published data.
Here you have more info on the Satori 4 Ohm driver:
www.audioexcite.com -- SB Acoustics “Satori” MW16P-4
Regards
/Göran
Kairos write up posted
I have opened a thread on the Meniscus forum for discussion of the Kairos loudspeaker kit (it is their, after all). There is a link in the thread to download a 23 page pdf write-up on the Kairos design, which covers a lot on the Satori drivers themselves. I know several people here were interested in the write-up so here is a link to the post:
View topic - The Kairos thread • Meniscus Audio Forum
Enjoy,
Jeff B.
I have opened a thread on the Meniscus forum for discussion of the Kairos loudspeaker kit (it is their, after all). There is a link in the thread to download a 23 page pdf write-up on the Kairos design, which covers a lot on the Satori drivers themselves. I know several people here were interested in the write-up so here is a link to the post:
View topic - The Kairos thread • Meniscus Audio Forum
Enjoy,
Jeff B.
Nice write-up.
Unfortunately it does not contain the actual crossover but that is OK out of the reasons you mentioned.
I also made an alternative phase linear crossover but of another type that has the tweeter in phase. It works with a symmetrical rising response near the crossover point.
Lipshitz and Vanderkoy have shown crossovers like that in the late 70th when i studied tele communications but as active filters.
They also have lobing problems so in the end i decided on a 2nd order all pass.
You could argue that this is a 2nd order L/R but that is a bit confusing because some call the 4th order L/R also 2nd order. I think there is no official second order L/R only 4th order. That kind of confusion is typical in engineering. By the way Linkwitz and Ryley have not being the fisrt ones that proposed all pass crossovers.
Unfortunately it does not contain the actual crossover but that is OK out of the reasons you mentioned.
I also made an alternative phase linear crossover but of another type that has the tweeter in phase. It works with a symmetrical rising response near the crossover point.
Lipshitz and Vanderkoy have shown crossovers like that in the late 70th when i studied tele communications but as active filters.
They also have lobing problems so in the end i decided on a 2nd order all pass.
You could argue that this is a 2nd order L/R but that is a bit confusing because some call the 4th order L/R also 2nd order. I think there is no official second order L/R only 4th order. That kind of confusion is typical in engineering. By the way Linkwitz and Ryley have not being the fisrt ones that proposed all pass crossovers.
Here is an interesting write-up that also has references to Garde, Linkwitz and Lipshitz-Vanderkoy.
http://www.essex.ac.uk/csee/research/audio_lab/malcolmspubdocs/J22 asymmetric all-pass crossover.pdf
http://www.essex.ac.uk/csee/research/audio_lab/malcolmspubdocs/J22 asymmetric all-pass crossover.pdf
here you can download a primer with other references :
CiteSeerX — A Primer ? Linkwitz-Riley Background ? 1st-Order Crossover Networks
Attempts to linear phase passive crossover go at least back to 1971, the classic Small paper on constant voltage crossovers.
Really nothing new here but like Jeff said :
The Satoris with their wide frequency response and overlap allow this kind of crossovers to be explored. I think that is good news also it is old news.
CiteSeerX — A Primer ? Linkwitz-Riley Background ? 1st-Order Crossover Networks
Attempts to linear phase passive crossover go at least back to 1971, the classic Small paper on constant voltage crossovers.
Really nothing new here but like Jeff said :
The Satoris with their wide frequency response and overlap allow this kind of crossovers to be explored. I think that is good news also it is old news.
Here are some pictures of my current setup. I sit close to the back wall.
The speakers are around 2m from my ears and quite far apart, maybe 3m.
There is no hole in the middle of the soundstage.
The monitors sit on high stands so that my ears are between the woofers and the tweeters.
I cross the Satoris over at 80Hz with a 6dB passive filter to my active M-Dipole bass.
More information soon or just ask me.
The speakers are around 2m from my ears and quite far apart, maybe 3m.
There is no hole in the middle of the soundstage.
The monitors sit on high stands so that my ears are between the woofers and the tweeters.
I cross the Satoris over at 80Hz with a 6dB passive filter to my active M-Dipole bass.
More information soon or just ask me.
Attachments
Joachim,
Nice pictures of your present setup. One of them-the last one-with the blue power capacitors which are bypassed by the red capacitors have my attention. Which value do you have used for trying out? Read: Power Capacitor : Bypass Capacitor? I am working with Mundorf M-LYRIC HC-10.000uF-80VDC. Do you have an advice?
mbrton,
Nice pictures of your present setup. One of them-the last one-with the blue power capacitors which are bypassed by the red capacitors have my attention. Which value do you have used for trying out? Read: Power Capacitor : Bypass Capacitor? I am working with Mundorf M-LYRIC HC-10.000uF-80VDC. Do you have an advice?
mbrton,
The power elcaps are B&C, i think 10.000uF or bigger.
The bypass are WIMA MKT, i think 2.2uF.
The M-lytics are even better, the best i know actually.
The bypass cap is kind of a philosophy.
I can be that when you bypass too strong the combination of elcap and bypass can resonate. I would start with 1uF MKT.
You can go up to more, say 3.3Uf and also can try Polypropylen.
Here on the forum you can find advice of how to optimize but then you have to measure.
The bypass are WIMA MKT, i think 2.2uF.
The M-lytics are even better, the best i know actually.
The bypass cap is kind of a philosophy.
I can be that when you bypass too strong the combination of elcap and bypass can resonate. I would start with 1uF MKT.
You can go up to more, say 3.3Uf and also can try Polypropylen.
Here on the forum you can find advice of how to optimize but then you have to measure.
Joachim, regarding to the bypass thanks for your quick reply. Back to your Satori project. Looking to these nice picture of your present setup and the enclosure detail with the twisted,read slightly bended shape-I suppose it is made by strong stress/ resistance/ and tension- I must say it is an (very) intelligent way of manufacturing! If is made with wood only matbe it will disappear slowly (?). I enjoy your project very much and follow it with great pleasure.
wmbrton,
wmbrton,
Thanks, for a honest answer Joachim. Without listening I guessed about the same.
I have some U18RNX/P with woven polycone and they are quite good but they can touch my SB17RNX when it comes to neutrality and open/dynamic midrange. I Also have used and own many Excel and they "excel" on some ways (magnesium cones) but I don't know, Seas is atleast doing much finer 4,5" and 5" drivers in my opinion.
I also now use 4 pcs of Seas L22RN4X/P with good results but my guts says to me "try SB 8" instead...." hehehe
Oouscchhh sometimes I got tired of all routering and changing baffles i get sick Maybe should enjoy music too =)
Ok, enough of that... when i read Joachims "bypass-ing" talk i got interested. I use my pc as primary source with a dedicated soundcard and i was thinking maybe that powersupply could use some help? It's a Corsair CX430 with a main Cap rated at 400V/i forgot but i think it was just under 500uF.
Checked my DIY box and there was a 400V/ 1.5uF Mcap MKP, so why not?
An hour later I switch on my tubeamp and there was dark sound signature showing up, like the two upper octaves where missing. I thought instruments sounded maybe a bit better... (listened to Marks new Privateering album) and i got a bit depressed... hmmm... i went to bed cuz it was late.
Next day I didn't bother to listen at all till late at night and this time i got shocked! Wow there was a big step up, suddenly it was like listen to a tubeamp for the first time.. Envolving mid, great dynamics and so on...
Very happy now with that small tweak. Also feel after this that my computer is more stable. And it feels a bit more snappy speedwise too. maybe placebo
I have some U18RNX/P with woven polycone and they are quite good but they can touch my SB17RNX when it comes to neutrality and open/dynamic midrange. I Also have used and own many Excel and they "excel" on some ways (magnesium cones) but I don't know, Seas is atleast doing much finer 4,5" and 5" drivers in my opinion.
I also now use 4 pcs of Seas L22RN4X/P with good results but my guts says to me "try SB 8" instead...." hehehe
Oouscchhh sometimes I got tired of all routering and changing baffles i get sick Maybe should enjoy music too =) Ok, enough of that... when i read Joachims "bypass-ing" talk i got interested. I use my pc as primary source with a dedicated soundcard and i was thinking maybe that powersupply could use some help? It's a Corsair CX430 with a main Cap rated at 400V/i forgot but i think it was just under 500uF.
Checked my DIY box and there was a 400V/ 1.5uF Mcap MKP, so why not?
An hour later I switch on my tubeamp and there was dark sound signature showing up, like the two upper octaves where missing. I thought instruments sounded maybe a bit better... (listened to Marks new Privateering album) and i got a bit depressed... hmmm... i went to bed cuz it was late.
Next day I didn't bother to listen at all till late at night and this time i got shocked! Wow there was a big step up, suddenly it was like listen to a tubeamp for the first time.. Envolving mid, great dynamics and so on...
Very happy now with that small tweak. Also feel after this that my computer is more stable. And it feels a bit more snappy speedwise too. maybe placebo
Yes, hard cones have to taking seriously when doing filter.
The 4 layer coil in my drivers with that high inductance helps alot when making a x-over. Already with a simply 12db (200-400hz) the peak are way down higher up.
There is a finnish brand called Aurelia. All metaldrivers (tweeter from seas titanium) Bas/mid unknown but every critic journalist seems to love them (at least here) Aurelia | The Beauty and the Music
Those I've listened to, wow. Impressive (also the design) but after 2-3 songs my ears bleeding. Maybe with some good tubeamp and varm cables =)
The 4 layer coil in my drivers with that high inductance helps alot when making a x-over. Already with a simply 12db (200-400hz) the peak are way down higher up.
There is a finnish brand called Aurelia. All metaldrivers (tweeter from seas titanium) Bas/mid unknown but every critic journalist seems to love them (at least here) Aurelia | The Beauty and the Music
Those I've listened to, wow. Impressive (also the design) but after 2-3 songs my ears bleeding. Maybe with some good tubeamp and varm cables =)
A 4 layer coil also has a disadvantage :
High Inductance. This is frequency and level dependent and creates a nasty type of distortion. When you limit it to the bass, fine.
The Satori is completely impedance compensated and does not have that problem.
The class leading low distortion shows that.
High Inductance. This is frequency and level dependent and creates a nasty type of distortion. When you limit it to the bass, fine.
The Satori is completely impedance compensated and does not have that problem.
The class leading low distortion shows that.