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Old 23rd January 2017, 09:25 AM   #21
ArtsyAllen is offline ArtsyAllen  United States
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Lightbulb So there is hope for BBB yet...

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Originally Posted by BrianDonegan View Post
You can actually get eight channels out of your computer using the BBB. Russ has been meaning to post about this, so I will let him follow on...
That would be great. I would be interested in Russ' objective option in how this option would compare to the other two possibilities I mention above.

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Originally Posted by francolargo View Post
@ArtsyAllen, I'd be interested to read of your uses for DSP. I'm running three BIIIse/Legatos via teleporters from my BBB. The BBB pulls stereo from the server and then actively divides it for multiple amps and their drivers. I've had some success with various IIR and simple FIR filters in the BBB. My next goal (though on the back burner for now) is to experiment with more powerful externally-processed FIR phase correction filters at the server level. These would "pre-treat" the stereo PCM signal that subsequently is processed by IIR filters at the level of the BBB.
My DSP outlook has changed a lot since I now have a Buffalo III and First One Amplifier. So giving You a link to one of my other threads would not be too helpful, as I have not updated them with the new discoveries. For one, I do not need to do near as much processing. In fact, I was doing everything FIR (including EQ), but the way I was doing it sounded too processed thru the new system above. Yet, the extra processing "clarified" my old rig. Now I run EQ and delay IIR via JRiver's PEQ and do phase adjustments in rePhase. I do everything manually and still have a lot to learn, in fact, re-learn. What I can say, is You are on the right track running just phase adjustments with FIR. RePhase is a nice piece of software, as it has a graphical interface so You can see what You are doing. What I want to experiment with next are the "windowing" options (Not to be confused with timing options in measurement software), like "retanguler", "blackman", "hamming", etc. Unfortunately, rePhase does not have good documentation, but there is a massively long thread about it, if You have patience:

rePhase, a loudspeaker phase linearization, EQ and FIR filtering tool

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Originally Posted by francolargo View Post
Be aware that the BBB can output 8 channels of PCM but only 4 channels of DSD - it cannot render 6 DSD channels if you were to generate those signals in a PC. There is some interest by a few brave users to employ the BBB as a network audio adapter to render DSD as produced by HQPlayer software. This software can convert PCM to DSD (in hopes of eliminating some sources of noise). That work is ongoing - I'd be a contributor in that effort but for my 3-way active speakers...
I noticed that on Richidoo's post earlier in this thread, that BBB can only Output 4 channels of DSD. You mention HQPlayer. I know JRiver can convert PCM to DSD also, so I would think BBB would render that DSD also. May I ask, what are your subjective/objective impressions of DSD? You must find it favorable, as You are willing to contribute your time to that cause. How are You going to get your six channels of DSD, daisy chain two BBBs?
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Old 23rd January 2017, 04:24 PM   #22
francolargo is offline francolargo  United States
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Originally Posted by ArtsyAllen View Post
You mention HQPlayer. I know JRiver can convert PCM to DSD also, so I would think BBB would render that DSD also. May I ask, what are your subjective/objective impressions of DSD? You must find it favorable, as You are willing to contribute your time to that cause. How are You going to get your six channels of DSD, daisy chain two BBBs?
There are subjective opinions 'out there' on both the AKM DAC chip that converts PCM to DSD and on the JRiver conversion - they report that HQPlayer can be adjusted to sound better. As always, everybody's mileage varies. I've only dabbled with DSD because I don't understand exactly where in the reproduction path its 'design' is most beneficial. I suspect that high on the list is speaker cones, which are things that I mess with... For my main system I'm much more likely to swap in ES9038s than throwing out the BBB and adapting a different SOC computer as a 6 channel DSD player.

They say 3 moves equals a fire and I believe it. I've recently moved again and need to re-build speakers for the new space. But I'll get back to optimizing the BBB-based signal path ASAP. Cheers!

Frank
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Old 24th January 2017, 04:21 AM   #23
pixelpusher is offline pixelpusher  United States
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Originally Posted by ArtsyAllen View Post
May I ask, what are your subjective/objective impressions of DSD? You must find it favorable, as You are willing to contribute your time to that cause. How are You going to get your six channels of DSD, daisy chain two BBBs?
I have installed the HQplayer endpoint on the BBB/Botic/Hermes/ect. Using Roon as the player I was disappointed in DSD converted by HQplayer. I realize that there are many different setting available and I did hear some differences when playing with that. A major issue I have with DSD is the "bump" between the tracks so I did not spend much time tweaking.

I did feel that PCM up sampled to 96k with HQplayer sounded excellent - better than with JRiver. My 30 days are up with HQplayer but I understand that Roon will soon be updated to include these features.
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Old 24th January 2017, 08:36 PM   #24
ArtsyAllen is offline ArtsyAllen  United States
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Originally Posted by francolargo View Post
I suspect that high on the list is speaker cones, which are things that I mess with... For my main system I'm much more likely to swap in ES9038s than throwing out the BBB and adapting a different SOC computer as a 6 channel DSD player.

They say 3 moves equals a fire and I believe it. I've recently moved again and need to re-build speakers for the new space.
Yes, speakers are my current weak link too. I have three systems I am working on: a full-range cheap line array, a full-range rear horn (Avebury) and a 3-way open baffle system. I use a subwoofer with all the systems (making the open baffle system a 4-way). Now with DSP, I can take all these systems to new levels, so I am learning a lot about each different design, and preparing to build the ultimate system. At some point, I will have time to post my discoveries.

I did not realize Russ was working on a new Buffalo design with the ESS9038. This might be the reason why a multi-channel interface has not been a top priority. It also makes me a little reluctant to go with the BBB, as it is old tech and is limited. On the other hand, if I wait this out a bit, I may be able to procure more Buffalo III's for those wishing to upgrade to the Buffalo IV's.
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Old 25th January 2017, 07:10 PM   #25
ArtsyAllen is offline ArtsyAllen  United States
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Lightbulb Roon, HQplayer verses JRiver...

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Originally Posted by pixelpusher View Post
I have installed the HQplayer endpoint on the BBB/Botic/Hermes/ect. Using Roon as the player I was disappointed in DSD converted by HQplayer... ...I did feel that PCM up sampled to 96k with HQplayer sounded excellent - better than with JRiver...
Thanks pixelpusher, for the impressions. I do find it interesting how different pieces of software sound. JRiver does have one massive advantage for me over Roon, in that it can work with Video. But I am curious to wonder if maybe I could stream my 8 channels of audio out of my PC in their native sample rates into the Russ' configured eight channel version of BBB and use HQplayer with-in the BBB to up-sample my eight channels to the DACs? Could have the best of both worlds then. You have sparked my curiosity enough to try HQplayer once I have the hardware to work with these higher rates.
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Old 26th January 2017, 10:53 AM   #26
francolargo is offline francolargo  United States
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Nope - HQPlayer requires serious CPU power for most of its processing. BBB was chosen as a renderer because it can slave to external clocks, which *eliminates* a destructive reclocking step. With HQPlayer for PCM you are just resampling but with very high precision. If it sounds better, great! But why? That's similar to my question with PCM -> DSD conversion: what hardware defect is being minimized? ...and can I address that system defect directly?


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Old 26th January 2017, 04:45 PM   #27
ArtsyAllen is offline ArtsyAllen  United States
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Question Question to the link we are looking for...

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Originally Posted by francolargo View Post
If it sounds better, great! But why? That's similar to my question with PCM -> DSD conversion: what hardware defect is being minimized? ...and can I address that system defect directly?
This is indeed a good question! I am know where near knowledgeable enough in digital circuits to know where to even start. But as far as designing what we are looking for as a multi-channel interface, these are the kinds of questions that need to be addressed...

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Originally Posted by francolargo View Post
BBB was chosen as a renderer because it can slave to external clocks, which *eliminates* a destructive reclocking step.
So, Frank, are You using an external clock, like Cronus, with your BBB? The reason I am curious about this is, it looks like the TPA Cronus board can only handle two channels, so even if we have a way of inputting eight channels into the BBB, the Cronus board would not work. But Ian's FIDO board might (although, I am not sure how it will interface with the BBB).

As You are more knowledgeable in this area, what are your thoughts on Ian's FIDO project? As the XMOS chips can slave from a master clock, what are the advantages verses disadvantages of using this over the BBB? Does it render like the BBB? As You can tell, I have a lot to learn yet.
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Old 26th January 2017, 05:18 PM   #28
BrianDonegan is offline BrianDonegan  United States
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A multi-channel interface from PC - the Missing Link
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So, Frank, are You using an external clock, like Cronus, with your BBB? The reason I am curious about this is, it looks like the TPA Cronus board can only handle two channels, so even if we have a way of inputting eight channels into the BBB, the Cronus board would not work.
Cronus can handle eight channels.
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Old 26th January 2017, 05:20 PM   #29
ArtsyAllen is offline ArtsyAllen  United States
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Default XMOS verses BBB

I need to figure this clocking, re-clocking, master clocking deal out. Because I am not clear on how it all works with different hardware.

With SPDIF, if I run out of my computer motherboard, the motherboard is the master clock and the Buffalo III "re-clocks" that signal. If I run out of my M-audio SPDIF, the M-Audio is the master clock and the Buffalo III "re-clocks" that signal. But is the M-Audio creating a new master clock, or is it "re-clocking" the the stream from the PC? It is a USB DAC.

As Frank mentioned "rendering" I am trying to figure out where that happens with different uses of hardware. It seems important to have the master clock where the "rendering" takes place. The BBB can render a stream out of the PC. Can the XMOS do that? Needless to say, I will be studying what an XMOS can do later tonight.

Just thinking aloud here. Maybe if others see how unknowledgeable I am in these matters, they too, will not be embarrassed.
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Old 26th January 2017, 05:32 PM   #30
ArtsyAllen is offline ArtsyAllen  United States
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Cronus can handle eight channels.
Thanks Brain,

Maybe I should just go with the BBB, before my mind explodes.
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