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Old 25th January 2013, 02:26 PM   #651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Bass View Post
Great links!

I hope people read them.
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Old 25th January 2013, 03:19 PM   #652
labjr is offline labjr  United States
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That Monty article has been reposted in every forum thousands of times. Getting to be like spam.
 
Old 25th January 2013, 03:36 PM   #653
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Originally Posted by labjr View Post
That Monty article has been reposted in every forum thousands of times. Getting to be like spam.
First you tell me that my arguments are silly and now someone brings research with proofs and it is spam. Seems to me that it is a very scientific research but who knows, it could be just propaganda which I doubt it is.

Remember Chord is a company to begin with and they want to sell their products... Keep this in mind.

This is not meant as an insult or to challenge you but mainly discussion.

Ciao!
Do
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Old 25th January 2013, 04:11 PM   #654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ White View Post
Great links!

I hope people read them.
...enjoyed the Monty article but in the area of neuroscience it is a bit of a gloss-job over 20th century ideas. Considering how the nervous system's selective attention de-emphasizes so much sound ( witness MP3 technology) it wouldn't surprise me if on a higher level, the brain attends to* certain kinds of harmonics that could arise from hypersonic sources. [* ...like the attention effect of fingernails on a chalk board.] So I don't automatically dismiss the importance of critical binaural timing, and improving a cone's transient ability does have other perceptual effects than just 'punch'. But the upper limit of source frequency for these hypothetical perceptual effects? I'm guessing lots of individual variability. Over and out.
 
Old 25th January 2013, 04:55 PM   #655
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Default The articles...

Really gloss over the reality. I agree that, perhaps, 18 bits could be enough if indeed no one ever wanted to use any processing on a recording. But 24 bits gives margin for processing, and room for error, which always exists. Additionally, while the ultimate dynamic range does not require more bits, smoother gradations of micro dynamics result from more bits-how audible this is will depend entirely on the system though.
I also agree that frequency response much over 30 kHz or so is not necessary, but the articles do not go deep enough into digital filtering, and the quite audible artifacts of digital filters necessary for the 44.1 KHz sampling rate. I have listened to comparisons of 16/44.1 files and 24/192 files made from the same master, using the same SRC (master is DXD) and can hear differences which matter to me.
Additionally, many digital engineers whose judgement I trust, who have spent a lot of time developing digital filters, have pointed out that it is at 24/176.4-24/192 where one can use really benign filters and have no audible artifacts. I would much rather get my music at these rates, and am willing to pay a premium (and do) in order to have the more benign filters in play, and a little margin for error in the design and operation of the DAC. Indeed, 16/44.1 can sound very good when everything (ADC, mixing, mastering, DAC) is done absolutely perfectly, but there is no margin for error, and even when done "perfectly" there are still filter artifacts in the audible spectrum.
The first article suggests that the "problem" of high resolution music files is that they take up a lot of space! What nonsense, check the price difference between 500 GB and a 2TB hard drive these days, storage space is a non-issue. The article appears to be written for those who need to have their entire music library available on an iPod: in that case I agree: if one is listening to their music on an iPod, through Apples stock earbuds, then yes, there is no point in high resolution downloads, in fact, higher rate MP3s are entirely adequate for those listeners.
Articles like this are a little dangerous IMO, as they may undermine the availability of high resolution audio. Sure, 24/176.4-24/192 files may not be for everyone, but allowing the consumer to choose the quality level they want to purchase is the best option.
 
Old 26th January 2013, 04:02 PM   #656
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Keep in mind - I did not say I fully agree with either article.

I just think they are interesting, educational, and good food for thought.
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Old 26th January 2013, 04:18 PM   #657
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Default agreed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ White View Post
Keep in mind - I did not say I fully agree with either article.

I just think they are interesting, educational, and good food for thought.
There is good information. I only object to the absolute tone in the first article. If one read it with the mindset of believing it is definitive, one would come away thinking there is no value to high resolution music files. I feel that spreading such a point of view is counter productive to increase in availability of high res music.
Here at DIY audio, of course, we will read it and do our own listening tests, and come to our own conclusions, but over at Hydrogen Audio...
 
Old 26th January 2013, 04:40 PM   #658
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An absolute tone is natural for someone who is convinced they are correct. I would hope anyone reading this forum would (if interested) read it, and then simply take it for what it's worth. People who take such a tone are neither automatically right or wrong.

You and I have our own opinion on the matter, but reasonable people could disagree. That's just fine.

My own opinion is that there is value in higher sample rates and bit depth - but that there are practical and real limits to that value. Including available material. I agree it would be nice to have more such material available, and I am lucky to have access to a lot of it myself. But almost none of it is more than 196/24. The bulk of the masters I have access to are 96/24. I would say only about 30% are 192Khz. The couple of studios I have access to do not do anything above 192Khz.

I consider myself extremely fortunate to have good friends here in Nashville. The fact is very few people will ever have access to such material. I find that sad.

I enjoy reading things that challenge my thinking. I do it regularly. It only serves to reinforce my own convictions. I am not afraid to present an opposing point of view if for no other reason than to get people talking.

Cheers!
Russ
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Old 26th January 2013, 04:52 PM   #659
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Can handle DSD?
 
Old 26th January 2013, 05:00 PM   #660
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Can handle DSD?
Possibly at some point. Not yet.
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