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Old 7th August 2011, 03:25 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityPooh View Post
After a month of using ancient NOS Canadian-W.Germany originated PCC189, i can only say, that that is the far best signal tube i have in my collection.
GE Sylvania 6922, RCA PCC85(probably made on Mullard tooling) are good ones(just today arrived Philips PCC85 to "compete" with those), also Tungsram PCC85 and 6N1P-EV are also very nice.
All those have nice, but, very different characters. All of my other tubes PCC,ECC,E88CC, i have are not so suitable for 5881.

Considering that only that German PCC189 sounds, lets say, almost like perfect of all those, despite that, that a lot of audiophiles are claiming, that PCC189 can not work as audio signal tube.
Praxis shows opposite.
PCC189 in my case is more then "seaworthy" signal tube in ECC85 audio application. Period.
Further improvements on 5881 are.. Changed all electrolytic caps with RIFA, since i change all mkp s with Jantzen Superior, combo RIFA-Superior brings this amp to an high end level.
Performing even classical music in "full body" is now for my 5881 piece of cake, thanks to RIFAs.
RIFA needs almost a month to burn in.
I use 5881 in very serious DIY setup as one of two amps driving simultaniously DIY speakers with 7 drivers per channel, speakers are omnipole-dipole-BR uniphase principle. my invention.
Both amps are producing somewhere 700W sin per channel and they can be driven full power somewhere 1KW and more, peak per channel.
No distortion, source is top end digital, nothing similar advanced on the market yet, it has no jitter, flutter, there is no moving parts in it..

Thanks to Triode Al i made a vast buying of all kinds of ECC85 for testing in 5881.
Conclusion.
Medium quality ECC85 is better then almost any ECC88.
Not just less hum from tuner bottles, they seems to be built more rigid then signal bottles.
Clear winner over Mullard, Telefunken(i use those also) and other famous, is this bottle, capable of wiping off even famous 6N6P with more gain, clarity, huge musicality(Mullard and Telefunken sounds perfect, but this one sounds perfect and musical to die for) and 6N6P compared to this one has no punch, because of much lesser gain.
It has Rhodium coated pinout, thats very rare, and it looks similar to Bugle Boy, but it is far better performing then other Philips bottles from my stash and it has almost no hum!

1 PC. PCC85 Philips Double Triode 9AQ8 Tube Valve NOS | eBay

Somekind of "holly grail" of signal bottles(it is tuner bottle, but it works great as a signal). I tested it in few different top end tube DACs of my friends, same result, they happily get rid of their s ECC88-6N6Ps for this one.
Tubes in my 5881 are now: KT77 Genalex Gold Lion, pair of Telefunken PCC189 in the middle and Philips PCC85.
Same Philips tubes in tube DAC.

Last edited by CityPooh; 7th August 2011 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 20th March 2012, 04:52 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityPooh View Post
Further improvements on 5881 are.. Changed all electrolytic caps with RIFA, since i change all mkp s with Jantzen Superior, combo RIFA-Superior brings this amp to an high end level.
Performing even classical music in "full body" is now for my 5881 piece of cake, thanks to RIFAs.
RIFA needs almost a month to burn in.
I use 5881 in very serious DIY setup as one of two amps driving simultaniously DIY speakers with 7 drivers per channel, speakers are omnipole-dipole-BR uniphase principle. my invention.
Both amps are producing somewhere 700W sin per channel and they can be driven full power somewhere 1KW and more, peak per channel.
No distortion, source is top end digital, nothing similar advanced on the market yet, it has no jitter, flutter, there is no moving parts in it..

Thanks to Triode Al i made a vast buying of all kinds of ECC85 for testing in 5881.
Conclusion.
Medium quality ECC85 is better then almost any ECC88.
Not just less hum from tuner bottles, they seems to be built more rigid then signal bottles.
Clear winner over Mullard, Telefunken(i use those also) and other famous, is this bottle, capable of wiping off even famous 6N6P with more gain, clarity, huge musicality(Mullard and Telefunken sounds perfect, but this one sounds perfect and musical to die for) and 6N6P compared to this one has no punch, because of much lesser gain.
It has Rhodium coated pinout, thats very rare, and it looks similar to Bugle Boy, but it is far better performing then other Philips bottles from my stash and it has almost no hum!

1 PC. PCC85 Philips Double Triode 9AQ8 Tube Valve NOS | eBay

Somekind of "holly grail" of signal bottles(it is tuner bottle, but it works great as a signal). I tested it in few different top end tube DACs of my friends, same result, they happily get rid of their s ECC88-6N6Ps for this one.
Tubes in my 5881 are now: KT77 Genalex Gold Lion, pair of Telefunken PCC189 in the middle and Philips PCC85.
Same Philips tubes in tube DAC.
Hi I have a Yaqin MC-10 running on 6dj8/6922 is it safe to subsitute with pcc85 pcc189..it seems that heater voltage is different.Did you mean the Philips PCC85 was the best replacment for ECC88?Thanks
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Old 25th June 2012, 02:47 AM   #153
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hi does it mean that this amp can run any of these tubes 12ax7, 6n1,6n1p -ev, 6n6 , pcc85 , 9aq? without any modification ?

which ones are most reccomended ?
thanks a lot
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Old 17th September 2012, 12:48 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSDUCEReng View Post
Hi I have a Yaqin MC-10 running on 6dj8/6922 is it safe to subsitute with pcc85 pcc189..it seems that heater voltage is different.Did you mean the Philips PCC85 was the best replacment for ECC88?Thanks
Triode Al in this topic suggested PCC85 for 5881 on basis of measured values.
MC-10 is a different model, so i wouldnt suggest it.
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Old 17th September 2012, 01:15 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikecrazy View Post
hi does it mean that this amp can run any of these tubes 12ax7, 6n1,6n1p -ev, 6n6 , pcc85 , 9aq? without any modification ?

which ones are most reccomended ?
thanks a lot
Philips PCC85, if you find them, are real thing from start of 50ies, they are the same as Bugle Boys ECC88. Philips JAN 6992 from 80ies i have also, they are a joke compared to those.
PCC189, no problem, if you can find Telefunken, go for them. I found them under different, Canadian brand name, made for Canadian army.
Bugle Boys and Telefunken on the 5881, paired, marriage made in heaven.
Generally all those you listed.
6N6P, second best, but those are microphone tubes with lower signal, so amp will "lost some watts". Dont use two pairs of them, it will "lost almost all watts".
Other PCC85s i tried in 5881 are generally-better then all ECC88(goes only for 5881).

I improved mine 5881 further by throwing out source selector and by adding simple DACT Type 21 Stepped Attenuator 20K FOR PASS B1 DIY | eBay instead pottentiometer which wore out quickly.
Good result. In same step i added a pair of massive rhodium covered aux RCAs and i also added 30AWG silver-golden plated wire from attenuator to aux RCAs.
I dont have earphones, so i bypassed knob in back for them.

Somebody also likes the sound of tweaked 5881, as i like mine...

JACQUES HIFI PAGES hifi tube amps
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Old 8th April 2013, 06:52 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityPooh View Post
Triode Al in this topic suggested PCC85 for 5881 on basis of measured values.
MC-10 is a different model, so i wouldnt suggest it.
Hi citypooh thanks for keeping this tread going !! After going thru the schematic details ,i find that the MC10 front input stage is almost indentical to the Mc5881.

like your experiments i`m going try out the NOS tubes below which i have in hand

Telefunken PCC189
Siemens PCC85
Philips PCC85 and PCC189
Valvo PCC85 and PCC189
Egro PCC85
Hoges PCC85
Tungsram PCC85
ITT PCC85
RSD PCC85
Mazda PCC85
Toshiba PCC85

Will update the results soon....
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Old 15th April 2013, 04:59 PM   #157
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Hola. I went further on improving it.
All electrical wires to the IEC out and on-off knob i changed for solid core silver 12AWG in teflon insulation, IEC aux i changed with the massive one- gold coated(some original wires were corroded-fire hazard!) i throw out source selector and i wire directly on potti and aux, i changed all wiring on the signal path with 30AWG silver-gold coated, i changed potti which started to malfunction with DACT Type 21 Stepped Attenuator .Good result, also with the wiring.
Same 12AWG silver wiring i added on speakers aux to the banana binding posts and i change those with silver coated. Much more depth and detail.
I also throw away RCA aux plastic fantastic and it changed with the massive Gaofei rhodium plated non soldering one.
I have on my tube DAC a testing station, a bunch of different RCA aux for testing and Eichmann Phonopod and Gaofei are real jam, bit different in character and ability, but both open and musical, both capable of showing all micro goodies of the good transient response(CMC silver coated, dissapointment, worse then cheap ones, restrained, filters details) .
I bettered transient response and dynamic of the amp with bypassing power elko, i canibalized from the new Unison Simply, with the massive 4,7uf Mundorf Supreme MKP between + and- in company with Vishay 1837(yes, 1837 can stand that voltage!), on all MKPs(they are Jantzen Superiors-800V) i also add Vishay 1837 and that wiped off micro oscilations and with them the last shreds of the nasality.
Mundorf-or every good MKP in such addition is stabilizing power resource and it boosts dynamic capability of the amp in such way, that one couldnt believe.
I got this "trick" from an old tubophile.
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Old 16th April 2013, 01:06 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSDUCEReng View Post
Hi citypooh thanks for keeping this tread going !! After going thru the schematic details ,i find that the MC10 front input stage is almost indentical to the Mc5881.

like your experiments i`m going try out the NOS tubes below which i have in hand

Telefunken PCC189
Siemens PCC85
Philips PCC85 and PCC189
Valvo PCC85 and PCC189
Egro PCC85
Hoges PCC85
Tungsram PCC85
ITT PCC85
RSD PCC85
Mazda PCC85
Toshiba PCC85

Will update the results soon....
I will always be thankfull to Triode Al for ECC85 idea.
There are still a lots of NOS Philips PCC85 made in fifties to buy them online and they are exactly made like Bugle boys of the ECC82-83-88, but they are at least twenty times cheaper. They have codes printed on them, so everybody can by the Philips code ladders on the internet get to know when and where his tubes are made. I putted four of them in liquid nitrogene at my job, cryo process.
Two of them in tube DACa and two in 5881.
Lets leave elfs and trolls and miracles aside. I asked some old gentlemen, scientists of pshycal chemistry what should happen with bottles during cryogenisation.
Only one said that maybe barium molecules of the barium coating became more homogene, but that was hypothesis.
Snake oil or not. My ears told me that cryo treated ones had, talking in percents(%) few percents more stable transients,etc. They just "sing" better, more musical.
How i know that?
Sure they dont sound worse, monkey test of my right hand shows that i will always pick cryo one, just more likeable for the listening music.
Uga, uga.
PS. One of the Russian 6n6p from 80ies(Russians say that 80ies made were worst made, problems with the management and materials in factories ) didnt stood CRYO treatment well, glass on the side cracked.
Philips PCC85 are jam.
Forget about Philips JAN fakes from, story for little children says, made in 80ies. JAN 6922. It is not a bad tube for undemanding listener, especially for R&R music. It enlighten sound of electric guitars roughness, superb attack, pushes electric guitars forward in recordings, i like them a lot for my Fender Strat, but not for audio.
Most of the sound potential on my system are showing PCCs, Philips, Telefunken and Mullard. Mullard are different sounding, electrodes are different, but they are worth of the sin.
Far worst are RFT.
They said that they used them for the studio recordings.
I believe that. They have superb stereo, micro details, but their sound is so depressive, like it was the life behind the Berlin wall, completely without musicality, ripped off feelings of performing musicians. Those are perfect choice for the funeral homes or for the audio scenery, when the mother in law comes too often on visit, to "advise" you by force, how to raise your children...
I remember certain Focal speaker wires which had the same ability to depress the musicality of the system to the cellar and combo of those cables and RFT PCC85, should be outmost clinical and non musical one on the planet.
Why i dont use sligtly tweaked silver wired Unison Simply two, with Mundorf SIO, instead two factory MKPs, which is really good supermusical amp?
Like Triode Al underlined..
5881 topology is a very rare bird, it can drive low sensitivity speakers without sweat.
My minimonitors are such. Only 50W, but 350W sin ch Yamaha, power peddle to the meddle, cant drive them as half such strong and accurate as the 5881.
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Old 3rd May 2013, 06:39 AM   #159
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Malaysia
Quote:
Originally Posted by CityPooh View Post
I will always be thankfull to Triode Al for ECC85 idea.
There are still a lots of NOS Philips PCC85 made in fifties to buy them online and they are exactly made like Bugle boys of the ECC82-83-88, but they are at least twenty times cheaper. They have codes printed on them, so everybody can by the Philips code ladders on the internet get to know when and where his tubes are made. I putted four of them in liquid nitrogene at my job, cryo process.
Two of them in tube DACa and two in 5881.
Lets leave elfs and trolls and miracles aside. I asked some old gentlemen, scientists of pshycal chemistry what should happen with bottles during cryogenisation.
Only one said that maybe barium molecules of the barium coating became more homogene, but that was hypothesis.
Snake oil or not. My ears told me that cryo treated ones had, talking in percents(%) few percents more stable transients,etc. They just "sing" better, more musical.
How i know that?
Sure they dont sound worse, monkey test of my right hand shows that i will always pick cryo one, just more likeable for the listening music.
Uga, uga.
PS. One of the Russian 6n6p from 80ies(Russians say that 80ies made were worst made, problems with the management and materials in factories ) didnt stood CRYO treatment well, glass on the side cracked.
Philips PCC85 are jam.
Forget about Philips JAN fakes from, story for little children says, made in 80ies. JAN 6922. It is not a bad tube for undemanding listener, especially for R&R music. It enlighten sound of electric guitars roughness, superb attack, pushes electric guitars forward in recordings, i like them a lot for my Fender Strat, but not for audio.
Most of the sound potential on my system are showing PCCs, Philips, Telefunken and Mullard. Mullard are different sounding, electrodes are different, but they are worth of the sin.
Far worst are RFT.
They said that they used them for the studio recordings.
I believe that. They have superb stereo, micro details, but their sound is so depressive, like it was the life behind the Berlin wall, completely without musicality, ripped off feelings of performing musicians. Those are perfect choice for the funeral homes or for the audio scenery, when the mother in law comes too often on visit, to "advise" you by force, how to raise your children...
I remember certain Focal speaker wires which had the same ability to depress the musicality of the system to the cellar and combo of those cables and RFT PCC85, should be outmost clinical and non musical one on the planet.
Why i dont use sligtly tweaked silver wired Unison Simply two, with Mundorf SIO, instead two factory MKPs, which is really good supermusical amp?
Like Triode Al underlined..
5881 topology is a very rare bird, it can drive low sensitivity speakers without sweat.
My minimonitors are such. Only 50W, but 350W sin ch Yamaha, power peddle to the meddle, cant drive them as half such strong and accurate as the 5881.
Good news! i managed to find some time to try out the ECC/PCC85 on V1 position on the Yaqin MC-10 in place of the 6n1 / 6DJ8 and it works flawlessly!!
.Suberp sounds from the Telefunken and Valvo .TFK`s were smooth and nuetral while the Valvo`s has an amazing bottom end which really surprised me (as if i pushed up the bass knob by 5db or more!!)
As you said these tubes are indeed amazing !! I spent so much time listening to these tubes that i didn`t check the others yet.Coming soon with the rest....Phlips ,Siemens and the rest ..
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Old 16th May 2013, 03:18 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSDUCEReng View Post
Good news! i managed to find some time to try out the ECC/PCC85 on V1 position on the Yaqin MC-10 in place of the 6n1 / 6DJ8 and it works flawlessly!!
.Suberp sounds from the Telefunken and Valvo .TFK`s were smooth and nuetral while the Valvo`s has an amazing bottom end which really surprised me (as if i pushed up the bass knob by 5db or more!!)
As you said these tubes are indeed amazing !! I spent so much time listening to these tubes that i didn`t check the others yet.Coming soon with the rest....Phlips ,Siemens and the rest ..
Isnt it?
Superb NOS tubes for just a fraction of the cost of very similar ECC88.
I cant imagine how those tube works, if one is adjusting working pount of tubes to the spot..I still didnt do that..
I then played with tube dampers of the different kinds, from the thick silicon rings to complete Herbie dampers array and also the combos of both and in for now i ilke more old Herbie models with Herbies on the top of tube and one thick silicone ring in the bottom, over the very "analytical" new Herbies models. I have supertweeters and new models are more clera sounded in highs and supertweeters are acting the same, so no need to boost highs twice.
Positioning of the Herbies dampers in the middle-top-bottom, changes sound a lot.
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