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Old 17th December 2002, 07:37 PM   #21
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Default CAP TEST

Hi,

Quote:
And this then "proves" what listeners experience when upgrading to a superior capacitor.
Yes,and I put the quotes there for a reason: "proves".

Fine then.
I rephrase: And this then confirms what listeners experience when upgrading to a superior capacitor.

When the measurements of an amplfier or whatever show THD figures do you then have "proof" that it is actually there?

To put it another way:whenever you listen to amplifiers do you hear the distortions these showed on the scope?
I for one can't tell how many percent of distortion I hear just by listening.
What I can easily tell apart though is when I hear a bad amp or a good amp.
Moreover the better one does not necessarily have the better distortion figures.

The only way to prove all this is by doing scientifically controlled A-B listening tests,preferably large scale.

That would prove that we are probably measuring the wrong things with our test gear.

Or,putting it more mildly:that our measurements do not tell the whole story when it comes to reveal perceived audible differences.

Perhaps we should develop a measuring device that mimmicks the human ear/brain interface in a perfect manner.

In the mean time I trust my ears and those of others.

Cheers,
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Old 17th December 2002, 07:57 PM   #22
Joel is offline Joel  United States
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Default Re: CAP TEST

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
That would prove that we are probably measuring the wrong things with our test gear.
Or, putting it more mildly:that our measurements do not tell the whole story when it comes to reveal perceived audible differences.
But Frank, you just said that his test does explain the perceived results! From your point of view (and many other audiophiles), the "science" was more than adequate, and the measuring equipment was more than adequate. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! If the gear proves your point, it's ok. If it doesn't, it's bad. Huh?????

Isn't it funny that I am told repeatedly "I don't listen to my scope". "My scope can't hear music." etc. And then they direct me to the steve bench website as proof of their convictions. The site which contains nothing but pretty pictures of.... SCOPES!!
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Old 17th December 2002, 08:09 PM   #23
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Default CAP TEST

Hi Joel,

Quote:
But Frank, you just said that his test does explain the perceived results!
I don't think I imply that.I was speaking about measurements in general.
If you reread you'll see "amplifier","audio gear" etc.

Not capacitors.

Steve's test show it the other way around,he shows in a visible way with the shown shots of the display that the different behaviour of various caps at various frequencies are actualy there and not imaginary.

You can extrapolate whatever suits you from it if you like but it confirmed to me at least what I knew to be correct all along.

You do know how to read a scope I presume?

Cheers,
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Old 17th December 2002, 08:11 PM   #24
Joel is offline Joel  United States
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Default Re: CAP TEST

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
You do know how to read a scope I presume?
Yes, I do. Which is why i'm still waiting for a schematic, and a guide to the size of the units of measure used.
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Old 17th December 2002, 08:23 PM   #25
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Frank,

There are two different issues here:
1) The correlation between dielectreic absorbtion and listening
experiences
2) Steve Benchs test

For 1) there seems to possibly be a correlation since most people
who have opinion on capacitors tend to agree on how they
sound and their ranking correlates to the DA properties. This
is still wanting as a proof, since we have no controlled listening
experiments, but that is another issue, so let's keep that out
for now.

Now, for 2) there is the question I posed previously: what does
SB really show us that we didn't know before? Clearly he does
not tell us anything about how the capacitors sound, since he
has only measured them. What he measured is the DA of the
various capacitors and found this to vary with the type of
dielectricum used. Not surprisingly, his results agreed by what
one can read about various dielectrica in textbooks. As far as I
can see, then, his article doesn't add anything new at all,
except some fancy scope pictures to go along with DA results.

What "capacitor listeners" want to prove, or at least claim, is
the correlation 1), but this cannot be proven any further unless
large-scale listening tests are conducted. Steve Bench adds
nothing to this.
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Old 17th December 2002, 08:58 PM   #26
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Default CAP TEST SEQUEL #3077.

Hi,

Christer,

Re:

#1)Do you really believe there is no factual evidence that clearly proves that the worst dielectrical material will absorb the most of an AC signal?
It is actually put to service in filter applications.

#2)You should see Steve's test in the context of his contribution to Audio Amateur magazine when he was asked to visibly show how different caps behave at various frequencie to the audience of that magazine.
In that respect his work is to be considered as a "let's put it all under one roof thing" so the audiance had a synopsis of the issue.Period.

Quote:
What "capacitor listeners" want to prove, or at least claim, is
Is that debate still going on to this day?
Or does it just live on this forum?

There is a lot more to the making of a good/excellent cap for audio application than just DA alone.
Now,with your technical knowledge at hand you must know that a cap represents the electrical equivalent of an LCR filter.
Needles to say than that if you can reduce L and R and keep DA as low as possible you will then have a cap that behaves in a more ideal (i.e. linear) way at audio frequencies and if you're lucky
well beyond it.
Why this then would or would not be audible I leave that in the middle.
Just know that a component will impose less of a challenge when it is behaving as linearly as you can get.

Has anyone ever considered thinking about why electrolytic capacitors are much better suited at filtering out low frequency ripple?

And you wonder why you guys get hum on the PSU when you use polyprops only?Heck,they're just too good at letting the low frequency ripple pass.

Phew....
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Old 17th December 2002, 09:19 PM   #27
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Default Re: CAP TEST SEQUEL #3077.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove

#1)Do you really believe there is no factual evidence that clearly proves that the worst dielectrical material will absorb the most of an AC signal?
It is actually put to service in filter applications.
I don't know what this has to do with my point 1) and I thought
we were discussing DA only.


#2)You should see Steve's test in the context of his contribution to Audio Amateur magazine when he was asked to visibly show how different caps behave at various frequencie to the audience of that magazine.
In that respect his work is to be considered as a "let's put it all under one roof thing" so the audiance had a synopsis of the issue.Period.


Fair enough, it can be a bit confusing, though, if used out of
context with no further explanation, as it often is. If DA is the
issue, then it is an unecessary complication to drag in his
article, although it can serve to illustrate the phenomenon.



Regarding the rest of what you wrote, yes, of course there
is resistance and inductance too, but I thought that was not
the issue being discussed. I suspect these would not be of a
magnitude to show up in SBs test, at least not for 0.1uF
capacitors of whatever type.


Once again, please note that I am not arguing against the
claim of capacitors sounding different, just discussing the
arguments used in the debate.
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Old 17th December 2002, 09:22 PM   #28
dhaen is offline dhaen  Europe
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Quote:
Has anyone ever considered thinking about why electrolytic capacitors are much better suited at filtering out low frequency ripple?
It has only to do with the values they are available in. Nothing to do with the construction.
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Old 17th December 2002, 09:33 PM   #29
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Default CAP SEQUEL #3078

Hi,

Christer???

Quote:
I don't know what this has to do with my point 1) and I thought we were discussing DA only.
DA is directly dependent on the dielectrical used.

Do any of you need a table with a classification re dielectrical properties?

John,

That is only partly true.

Cheers,
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Old 17th December 2002, 09:46 PM   #30
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Default Electrolytic v others

Quote:
John, that is only partly true
Your right. I just came to edit my post, but you GOT ME
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