• WARNING: Tube/Valve amplifiers use potentially LETHAL HIGH VOLTAGES.
    Building, troubleshooting and testing of these amplifiers should only be
    performed by someone who is thoroughly familiar with
    the safety precautions around high voltages.

The sound of parts

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
Is anyone interested in trying to discover ways to measure why different parts sound different?

It is plain to see that today, no two people can agree on why one cap or resistor sounds better or worse that another. What I am interested in doing is trying to develope a test methode to define the differences in parts that cause one part to sound different than an other. At the same time try, based on measurements and listening tests, quantify the differences.

To me the first step is to agree on a test bed and a way to deside if there is a difference that can be heard. Next is to come up with what tests we think might give clues to these differences in sound.

We all know that Frequency response, THD, IMD and other conventional tests don't tell the story so what we need is something different.

Any Ideas?

Later
Bruce:geezer:
 
Yes, I have an idea. When you set up a test which eliminates bias and expectation, and that test shows that no one participating can hear a difference between a 20 cent Radio Shack resistor and some super-whammy fashionable tellurium film jobbie that costs $20, the test will be attacked as useless because it doesn't show the difference that "everyone knows" is there.

Religion is not amenable to test, otherwise the Catholic Church would use DNA testing to prove the reality of trans-substantiation.

So my idea is, "don't bother."
 
If you don't want to try that's fine. I'm not saying that there is a way to do this. I am interested in finding out what I can however.

On the other hand just because one person can't hear a difference doesn't mean there isn't one. That's why several listeners are needed along with a well defined test.

Later
Bruce:geezer:
 
diyAudio Senior Member
Joined 2002
PASSIVES

Hi,

Is anyone interested in trying to discover ways to measure why different parts sound different?

If only it could all be measured.

Bruce,I surely encourage this.

It would put a stop on discussions that are going on for thirty years,yes thirty,already.

To put it bluntly,I'm getting tired of convincing people that don't even want to try it out for themselves.

The only way,IMHO, those differences do show up is when you know exactly what to look for and can use differential analysis.

I'm much convinced that what we hear has little to do with THD.
One way to go would be FFT analysis...

Measuring differences in caps has already been done successfully by Walt&Jung and has been published in (I think) Audio Amateur in the eighties.

Personally I find resistors more challenging to measure unless you narrow down the field and only look at how these behave in series with the signal.
Even then it will hard to find a mathematical proof for the way they "sound"

Different materials are all going to sound different,that seems obvious to me.

If you don't mind I'd like to invite some experienced people to this thread.

Cheers,;)
 
Go for it Frank. I would value any constructive input.

This subject has been the home of much snake oil in the past as well as those who will tell you that all parts sound the same. I think the truth is some where in there. We just need to come up with reliable ways to find it.

Later
Bruce:geezer:
 
diyAudio Senior Member
Joined 2002
AC/DC

Hi,

isn't SY the same fellow who said DC is DC so all power supply regulators are pretty much the same...

May be.

I'm the one who says an amplifier is nothing more than a modulated PSU.

Anyway let's not go off topic right from the start,shall we?

No offense Dorkus?
It's just that if we somehow can crack this nut it would be a major breakthrough.
Assuming of course it hasn't been done before.

Ciao,;)
 
What part of this puzzle should we start on?

I was thinking one of the things we need to do is come up with a way for multiple testers to deside if a specific part change makes a difference. Should this be a circuit that is placed in the normal setups of the testers via the tape loop or at the preamp output? Should the ability to switch seclect the part under test be a part of this "box"?

This same "test box" should be transferable to the test equipment setup for that stage of the exersise.

Remember, I am not trying to determine good, better best here, just if there is a difference and how can we measure it. Good, better, best comes later and will end up topology dependant and very subjective I'm sure.

Thank's and Later
Bruce:geezer:
 
diyAudio Retiree
Joined 2002
Passive component measurement

There are measured specifications for both resistors and capacitors that are very well know by competent engineers. Several capacitor test have been referenced here on the forum. There are also resistor specifications that correlate with sonics. I remind all that most quality passive components were not developed for audio but for high precision instrumentation. Use of many of this parts by open minded audio designers is what threw the spotlight on the sound of passive components. There have been many articles on measurements for passive components. Unfamiliarity with these by the "parts is parts" camp is further proof of their intellectual laziness. Maybe if a few of these people would show a little initiative they might learn something. I still am amazed that anyone could be as proud of their ignorance as a few posters here.
 
Frank, what makes you think we haven't tried the same "tests" that you have? I have. I don't get the same "results" you get.

In the past every change in audio design/technology has provided a marked contrast between it and the technology used before it. Stereo vs mono, high fidelity vs limited bandwidth, LP vs CD, PP vs single-ended, etc. No one argued that stereo and mono do not sound different. They argued whether they LIKED it or not, but everybody heard a real difference. Same with Hi-fi. Some people just didn't like it. But nobody said "They sound the same". Compact discs - same story. And in each case, measurements could detect the true differences in sonics.

Now here on the forum we have a situation where some people simply do not hear any difference at all. That is a unique situation in the history of audio. Never before have both sides disagreed on the basic premise that they are both observing a change in audible behavior. That is why I think psychology is to blame here, and not your changing components.

Your test Bruce, needs to be conducted by psychologists, not engineers. This is a marketing expectation issue. And I'm not trying to be flippant, or argumentative - I'm being 100% serious.
 
diyAudio Retiree
Joined 2002
That is a unique situation in the history of audio.

NONSENSE. Some people hear better than others and that will always be true. Less and less people ever listen to live unamplified music which also makes this worse. Learning to listen and setting up a system to reveal these sometimes subtle differences is also beyond the ability and patience of many people. I cannot taste the difference between good wines but I have never accused those who can of fraud or self delusion.
 
That may well be the case Joel. I still think that if approched with an open mind progress can be made here.

Some people seem to use long term listening as their reference, others go with A-B-X and both have there place. It maybe we need to use both of these and something else as well to make our own determinations here. These things are also a part of this experiment. See if we can find out why some people say they can't hear a change when others talk about great differences.

Later
Bruce:geezer:
 
diyAudio Senior Member
Joined 2002
TESTS

Joel,

Why do you single me out?

I can only tell you what thousands of other people have confirmed over the last thirty years.
Rest assured I certainly was not the only one spending a large percentage of his professional and private time testing and listening to various passive components.
It turned out they were not as passive as you seem to make out.

Now here on the forum we have a situation where some people simply do not hear any difference at all.

No Joel,I'll bet you that if we were to conduct a poll amongst forum members that results would clearly show most do believe in sonic differences amongst various passive components.

Your test Bruce, needs to be conducted by psychologists, not engineers.

Again no, Joel.
The tests should be carried out as scientifically as humanly possible.

And last but not least:do you mind if we even make an attempt at this test at all?

Gosh,:xeye:
 
The game is played on the wrong end of the field. It's up to someone who *claims* to hear a difference between, for example, a carbon film resistor and a metal foil resistor as an anode load to demonstrate that the difference is real and verifiable. At least if such assertions are to be taken any more seriously than the claims of Uri Geller to be able to bend keys using "psychic" power.

Despite tons of ink, paper, electrons, and photons being spilled, and acres of assertions spread, not one valid test of this sort that I'm aware of has been published. I'd be a lot more open minded if there was at least one scrap of real listening data out there. Not so far, though, just blunt assertion, straw men, and ad hominem. If Bruce's project bears fruit here, we've got something worth looking at. But it's been done, it's been done over and over, and all I hear is about how putting any control on a test destroys its validity, in TOTAL contrast to all other sensory research.

But then again, I'm not the religious sort.
 
Re: That is a unique situation in the history of audio.

Fred Dieckmann said:
I cannot taste the difference between good wines but I have never accused those who can of fraud or self delusion.

That's because we do those tastings blind, with controls and checks. If I claimed that using a yellow capsule made my wine taste different than using a red capsule, then waved away the fact that I couldn't tell the difference in a multiple trial triangle test, I'd be laughed out of this profession.
 
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.