Death/Black Metal sound on Crate 6212

[IxKaCKxI]

I am currently in the process of changing the power tubes and pre-amp tubes on my amp and would like to know 1) what type/brand of tube I can put in that will give me a more death metal sound and 2) are there any other simple modifications I can do to the amp to make it have that low crunch sound? To be more specific, at lower volumes the amp sounds pretty good (still not the sound that I would like though) when I crank it up it loses its clarity, noticeably.

I am currently running 2 Mesa Boogie 6L6's and the stock 12AX7's and 12AU7.

Any suggestions would be appreciated, even if they are for more than just simple mods. Also, I have never moded an amp so if it is somewhat complicated please explain.

[nobody special]

Not to pee on your campfire or anything, but I think that the point of the tubes is to get away from that type of sound. You need some solid state diode or opamp type distortion and some EQ, most likely. Have you tried any pedals?
Another problem might be the speakers. If you're looking for more bottom end, a different speaker might be the ticket.

[darkfenriz]

Black metal with tubes? Oh no!

[phn]

I don't play guitar. And tubelab knows infinitely more about these things than I. But I do know people who play hardcore/metal and they all, as far as I know, use tube gear.

From one of tubelab's post it seems there's no easy answer. I just talked to a friend, who asked me if I had any Mullard EL34s. He has tried every other brand and they don't sound like the Mullards. But based on tubelab's post, it doesn't mean Mullard is the solution for your amp.

The main purpose of this post is to say, you're in the right using tubes. SS might work just as well. But it's not more suited for the sweet sound of grinding death metal guitars.

[mrshow4u]

".....low crunch sound"???? Have you tried Orange Amps?? Very ka-chunky

[leadbelly]

WTF is with these bizarre replies? The guy asked a simple question.

I would recommend considering a tube swap 1st. Here's some reviews on 6L6 types: http://www.thetubestore.com/6l6review.html
and 12AX7 types:
http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html
and see if anything there piques your interest.

You can even try something as drastic as a 12AX7 swap for that 12AU7, but I would post a schematic here for people to look over to make sure it's safe.

[Peter M.]

I replaced the kathode resistors in the preamp in my amp with red Led`s, got harder distortion. (also removed the bypass caps).

I also installed LED`s back-to-back, as clipping diodes, worked great!

Not sure if it will work well in your amp...

[tubelab.com]

It is hard to say what would sound good in your particular amp. I have never tinkered with any Crate amps. I tend to just try a bunch of different tubes to see what happens, but I have a lot of tubes to try.

From one of tubelab's post it seems there's no easy answer. I just talked to a friend, who asked me if I had any Mullard EL34s. He has tried every other brand and they don't sound like the Mullards. But based on tubelab's post, it doesn't mean Mullard is the solution for your amp.

Mullard EL34's just cost too much for me to ever use in a guitar amp, but I tend to use cheap tubes in my amps. I don't play in live situations where a blown tube would be a problem either.

There is no easy answer, but if you have access to some tubes to try, swap away. There are several different brands of 6L6 type tubes available, and I don't know of any particular brands to avoid, but I have not been as involved with guitar amps as much as I used to, due to the lack of time. I haven't built a complete guitar amp in about 5 years. (I am way overdue)

As stated before, the speakers make the biggest change in sound, then the transformers, then the tubes, and then the other parts. Obviously the easiest path to take it tube swapping. There are lots of modifications that can be made to change the sound of an amp, but most of them are pretty amp specific.

About 10 or 12 years ago, a guy came to me with a book full of amp mods, and an old Fender amp, and asked me to do some of the mods to his amp. One thing led to another, and I wound up building him a new amp. I haven't seen him in many years, but I got one of those books. Most of the mods are old Fender specific, but the explanations are good for all, and the book is full of schematics (remember this was the beginning of the internet era, schematics were hard to find). I have built amps from those schematics. The book is still available at Sam Ash music and Amazon. It is called "A desktop reference of hip vintage guitar amps" by Gerald Weber. ISBN# 0-9641060-0-0

You can even try something as drastic as a 12AX7 swap for that 12AU7, but I would post a schematic here for people to look over to make sure it's safe.

I routinely try just about any tube that has the right pinout in the preamp positions. 12AX7, 12AU7, 12AT7, 12BH7, 12DW7, 5751, 5814, 6201, 5963, 5965, etc. I have never had any thing bad happen, but it is remotely possible, especially if there is a DC coupled driver stage. Puting a 12AX7 where a 12AU7 belongs usually doesn't work because the bias is all wrong, but it does give an overdriven distortion if it does work. Try a 12AT7 instead, I have had better luck with it. If you are using a distortion pedal, try going the other way, put a 12AU7 (or 12AT7) in place of the first 12AX7.

Most of my tube experiments have been on Fender or Marshalls, or their clones. I couldn't find a schematic of this amp on the web for download, so I can't tell you if these experiments are safe for your particular amp.

[IxKaCKxI]

leadbelly, thanks for the info, I was actually just on that page today though. So I guess a related question to what you have posted is what changes the sound of an amp more the pre-amp tubes or the power tubes? From what I have read, I think I remember that the pre-amp tubes will have a much greater impact. If you have a different opinion please let me know.

Peter, I sort of don't know what your trying to say. I should have also said that I am not familiar with amp circuitry, even though I am sure that I could learn pretty quickly. If you don't mind, please explain in a bit more detail and also state what each mod that you did does. Thanks!

Why would you not be able to get a death or black metal sound from tubes, especially 6L6's? Is the 6L6 not the common tube used for a metal sound?

On that note, should I consider possible changing the tubes to 6551's?

Lastly, I guess that I should have mentioned that my 6212 is from the Blue Voodoo line. I was not aware that Crate had manufactured a non-Blue Voodoo 6212.

The schematics for this amp are at http://www.americanmusical.com/Manua...mbo_manual.pdf

[leadbelly]

Originally posted by IxKaCKxI
leadbelly, thanks for the info, I was actually just on that page today though. So I guess a related question to what you have posted is what changes the sound of an amp more the pre-amp tubes or the power tubes? From what I have read, I think I remember that the pre-amp tubes will have a much greater impact. If you have a different opinion please let me know.

The schematics for this amp are at http://www.americanmusical.com/Manua...mbo_manual.pdf

There's no schematic in that .pdf, just a block diagram.

Hard to say "do this and you will be happy". Sure, switching preamp tubes from one type to another will achieve a more dramatic change, but will it lead to clearing up the muddy sound you hear when playing loud is hard to say. I would take tubelab's advice, buy a 12AT7 and try it both swapping out the 12AX7 and the 12AU7 and see if you like it. It's just the price of 1 tube after all.