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-   -   should the filaments be already hot before the B+ is applied or (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/84873-should-filaments-already-hot-before-b-applied.html)

jarthel 16th August 2006 11:15 PM

should the filaments be already hot before the B+ is applied or
 
is it vice-versa?

I have 2 transformers. One of the B+ and rectifier tube and another one amp tubes.

I will be using regulated DC supply for the amp tubes' heater(no discussion on ac vs dc please :)) and I'm thinking of using a "slow turn on" supply like the one describe in the LM117 datasheet.

Furthermore, I am thinking (not definite yet) of using an NTC thermistor from Epcos:
============
33ohms
2.5A
Highest/lowest category temperature: -55C to +170�C
Max. energy at 25�C: Pmax 3.1W
Resistance tolerance: R/RN �20%
Nominal temperature: TN 25�C
Heat conductivity (air): th approx. 17mW/K
Therm. cooling rate constant (air): C approx. 90s
Thermal capacity: Cth approx. 1.530mJ/K
==============

The thermistor will be place on the IEC socket. So this means both transformers are covered.
===================================
1. As the title says, I'm wondering if the amp tubes should already be hot when B+ is applied?

2. is the thermistor even required to achieve an over-all slow turn on? or the slow turn-on of the regulated dc supply be enough?

Thanks for the help :)

rtarbell 16th August 2006 11:34 PM

==> If you can, refer to the book by Morgan Jones titled "Valve Amplifiers"; there is a section in the book that addresses the very question you ask.

I don't have the book in front of me, but if I remember correctly, he suggests something like this:

The heater should be powered to ~65% of full voltage before the B+ is applied. It is bad to turn on the B+ to the amp cold, and it is also bad to apply the B+ to the amp when the heaters are fully on.

rwellerson 17th August 2006 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rtarbell
==> .....and it is also bad to apply the B+ to the amp when the heaters are fully on.
Never heard about this before...
Any sensible and REAL reason to do this?
Have been doing EXACTLY the opposite for about 8 years to the same 6550C Svetlana quartet set of tubes and 1 month ago checked the emission on them: 82% (and just the same emission for a BRAND NEW 6550 Svetlana I have as a spare)
And none other problems whatsoever.

[ ]
Ricardo

anatech 17th August 2006 02:50 AM

Hi Ricardo, Jarthel,
You normally want the heaters to be running and up to temperature before applying B+. This is to limit HV surge on the unloaded power supply and also to prevent "cathode stripping". At lower values of B+, there isn't too much harm in applying B+ to the plates before the heaters are warmed up.

-Chris

jarthel 17th August 2006 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by anatech
Hi Ricardo, Jarthel,
You normally want the heaters to be running and up to temperature before applying B+. This is to limit HV surge on the unloaded power supply and also to prevent "cathode stripping". At lower values of B+, there isn't too much harm in applying B+ to the plates before the heaters are warmed up.

-Chris


having said that, is there any reason to have a "slow turn-on" on the tube heaters? cause it seems the "slow turn-on" must be on the B+?

CLS 17th August 2006 03:11 AM

Recently I added a delay relay on the HV supply for my 300B amp. Delay time is about 45 seconds after the filament supply is on.

When the HV is on, I can see some blue light is generated inside the glass, for several seconds, then fades away. Is that space charge overflow? :xeye:

Before this delay relay was installed, HV & filament supply were turned on simultaneously. And there'd be a burst of hum for a short while after several seconds the switch was on.

With delay HV, the turn-on hum never happen again, only some blue glow.

The tubes are rather new, I'm not sure which is better.

Ciscokid 17th August 2006 03:18 AM

Hi jarthel,

Here something you might want to try:

http://www.tubesrit.com/audio/albums...h/image002.jpg



Quote:

No matter which switch is thrown first... the filaments will come on FIRST ! Subsequently, when the second switch is thrown... the B+ will come up.



When all is powered up.... the next switch (either) to be thrown will turn off the B+ before the filaments are turned off with the last switch operation.



ELEGANT !!!


source: 1941 "The Radio Handbook" 8th edition.

Hope this helps. dg

jarthel 17th August 2006 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ciscokid
Hi jarthel,

Here something you might want to try:

http://www.tubesrit.com/audio/albums...h/image002.jpg






Hope this helps. dg


not "high tech" but it's simple. :)

thank you.

lndm 17th August 2006 06:27 AM

As Anatech said, for low B+ there is little harm in applying the B+ before the heaters are up. I would agree where line stage voltages are concerned, at least in my experience.

Quote:

Originally posted by jarthel
having said that, is there any reason to have a "slow turn-on" on the tube heaters? cause it seems the "slow turn-on" must be on the B+?
Heaters can be stressed by the inrush current at turnon. Their resistance is lower when cold, just as with lightbulbs which almost invariably blow at turnon.

Series resistance can help, as due to the varying resistance in the heater, the resistor is more significant the colder the heater is so it has the greatest effect in the first seconds. This works with current regulation too.


Some thoughts (perhaps a little far fetched though). Applying B+ with cold heaters should apply a gradually increasing load to the B+ supply as they warm up.

Applying B+ with cold heaters may cause the unloaded power supply to build up higher voltages than otherwise (not that a well built supply shouldn't handle this)

Vacuum diodes tend to fix this whole issue (as long as you don't feel they create their own issues).

ray_moth 17th August 2006 08:03 AM

Some ideas:

Using TV damper diode tubes, either as "full wave" rectifiers with a CT secondary or as one half of a bridge together with fast-recovery SS diodes in the other half, gives you both a slow start and low PS noise. Either of these arrangements will delay B+ for about 30 seconds and the amp tubes will be well warmed up by then. TV dampers are favoured by quite a few designers and I've never heard of any adverse effects due to applying B+ late.

One solution to the heater surge problem when first switching on is to connect the amp heater circuits from the left and right channels of a stereo amp in series for about a second and then connecting them in parallel, as normal. A 1-second timed relay can do the job.

The use of a negative temperature coefficient resistor (thermistor) in the primary of the power tranny can help minimize initial current surges at switch-on.


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