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Old 22nd August 2006, 10:42 PM   #31
arnoldc is offline arnoldc  Philippines
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Thanks phn

Here's the picture of my friend's choke loaded 407A preamp
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File Type: jpg dsc01527.jpg (53.1 KB, 504 views)
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Old 22nd August 2006, 11:40 PM   #32
phn is offline phn  Sweden
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I tried the choke loaded 407A in LT Spice. Didn't get it to work. I get weird results when I try the Phonocard, or Phonoclone, as well. It's an inverted chip phono preamp. I have no problem when I run it non-inverted. I obviously do something wrong.
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Old 24th August 2006, 06:33 PM   #33
phn is offline phn  Sweden
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Robert, I finally got around to try the Curve Captor. Sweet! I found a thread on it here. Thanks.

Now I only have to get back to chaper 2, again.
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Old 1st September 2006, 02:35 PM   #34
phn is offline phn  Sweden
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I spoke too soon. The 6N3P does indeed look like a great candidate for a phono headamp (just as the C3g). It should be superior to the likes of the 6SN7 and ECC82, perhaps being as good as the E88CC.

I have much to learn about tubes and are likely to be wrong a lot of times. But I didn't want to leave this thread with the risk of having discouraged people from using what seems to be a superior tube, and not least having done it out of ignorance.
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Old 10th December 2011, 03:46 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnoldc View Post
Why not try the traditional way? Loadlines and stuff. If you have Morgan Jones, then that pretty much give you everything you need to know.

Why don't you post that 407A linestage and let's see...

FYI, I've made my own 407A pre and I really like it.
The "traditional way" like you said don't tell everything, particulary the frequency response of the tube with the kind of load, is dynamic plate resistance and inter-electrodes capacitances ...

With a good simulator, you can do in one little hour the same work that take a week or a month with traditional long and cumbersome calculations and analysis ... Simulators are modern tools for modern peoples, I use them since 1980, my first one was a small "basic language" matrix circuit analysis program running on one of my first computer, a Apple II+ ...

Cheers,

Alain.
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Old 10th December 2011, 04:22 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert McLean View Post
Here are 2 models you can try.

* 2C51 LTSpice model
.subckt 2C51 P G K
Bp P K I=(0.0104024146m)*uramp(V(P,K)*ln(1.0+(0.059315768 06)+exp((5.058207805)+(5.058207805)*((31.87419992) +
+ (-433.4177162m)*V(G,K))*V(G,K)/sqrt((11.5651995)**2+(V(P,K)-(16.01226163))**2)))/(5.058207805))**(1.510339782)

Cgk G K 2.2P
Cgp G P 1.1P
Cpk P K 1.0P
.ends 2C51



* 407A LTSpice model
.subckt 407A P G K
Bp P K I=((0.01444522184m)+(0.001093484804m)*V(G,K))*uram p((32.37781346)*V(G,K)+V(P,K)+(7.670441457))**1.5
+ * V(P,K)/(V(P,K)+(50.50181836))

Cgk G K 2.2P
Cgp G P 1.1P
Cpk P K 1.0P

.ends 407A

These are in the LTSpice flavour of Spice, since that is what I use personally. If they dont work in B2 spice then other versions can be provided. They were created using CurveCaptor.
Hi mister McLean,

I try both of them and it seem there are bugged, parenthesis mismatch and errors in formulas ... So I decide to make my own 6N3P model using the CurveCaptor Andrei Frolov program, it take less time than trying to fix those.

Cheers,

Alain.
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Old 10th December 2011, 04:53 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phn View Post
I have searcher here, as well as on google, for these models, like you should.

I have found a nice 407A-based line stage. I intend to post it here and let you guys have a say. But I want to play around with it in B2 Spice first. I try to learn B2 Spice as well as tubes.

I have Morgan Jones's Valve Amplifier laying around. I need to learn more about how to work with spice before I start reading it. If I'm to learn anything from the book and not get lost in the lingo and formulas and whatnots, I need a more hands-on approach. Otherwise it will be like reading a math book without solving the problems in it. Currently I suck pretty bad. I did one spice model, which didn't work. Got errors and it couldn't be fixed. When you tried to edit the model, Spice crashed.
I wonder if you are still looking for those models after all those years but yesterday, I was looking for a 6N3P model and I decide to make one myself using the CurveCaptor Andrei Frolov program :

Quote:
* 6N3P Spice 3F4 Koren 8 parameters model - Mean fit error 0,169309ma
* By Alain Poitras with Andrei Frolov CurveCaptor program
.subckt APK8P6N3P P G K
Bp P K I=(0.005016967051m)*uramp(V(P,K)*ln(1.0+(0.1243074 029)+exp((2.145472332)+(2.145472332)*((55.2989605) +(-1022.71849m)*V(G,K))*V(G,K)/sqrt((1.093223372e-006)^2+(V(P,K)-(-11.16773598))^2)))/(2.145472332))^(1.67698976)
Cgp G P 1.6p
Cgk G K 2.8p
Cpk P K 1.4p
RCP P K 1G ; TO AVOID FLOATING NODES IN MU-FOLLOWER
.ends APK8P6N3P
Here's the russian datasheet curves I use to make the model :

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the curves I generate with my SIMetrix spice simulator using my new model :

Click the image to open in full size.

Like you can see, some curves extremity are not absolutely perfect but in the usefull parts of the graphic, they fit very well the original ones.

The russian 6N3P is a good but "low cost" tube on eBay !

Alain.
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Old 10th December 2011, 01:48 PM   #38
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Hello,
I am a bit late, this is the 5670 SPICE model that I tweeked (I adjusted a similar model by Francesco Pintav) and use in B2 Spice. I have built several circuits including the Aikido and went back and forth adjusting the model and confirming that the circuit followed the model and the other way about. If you want send me a PM and I will attach a B2 circuit file in return.
DT

*. 5670_byDT model based on Gut
.subckt 5670_byDT a g k
bout ap k i = ((uramp((v(ap, k)/35.0)+v(g, k)))^1.5)/325

cgk g k 2.2e-12
cga g a 1.1e-12
cak a k 1.0e-12
rleak g gp 10e+3
d1 a ap dx
d2 k ap dx2
d3 pg k dx
.model dx d(is=1.0e-12 rs=1.0)
.model dx2 d(is=1.0e-9 rs=1.0)
.ends 5670_byDT

Last edited by DualTriode; 10th December 2011 at 02:01 PM. Reason: credit to Francesco Pintav
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Old 12th December 2011, 08:00 AM   #39
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Hi everybody,

I made many simulation tests with my new "very accurate Koren 8 parameters" 6N3P Spice model and it show me that tube is very good for small preamplifier signal. I test the model with the best operating points I can find for a "conventional commun cathode stage" and for a "commun cathode current mirror stage" which can be made with very handy "current regulator diodes" in series if necessary, a very good high voltage depletion MOSFET like the DN2540 or a big and expensive choke ...

Those tests was done with the maximum output voltage swing for the operation point bias and 100mV RMS input, both with a 1Meg or 100K load. First with a conventional "commun cathode stage" :

Click the image to open in full size.

Like you can see, with a big output voltage swing, the distortion is a bit high, not like with a 6DJ8 or a 12B4 ... The frequency response is very flat except with a low 100K load at 19,93V output, there is a 1dB loss at 20Khz ... The total harmonic distortion can reach 2,8% at this output voltage.

But at low output voltage ( 2V RMS ), the gain is 19,75 "without bypass capacitor" and the total harmonic distortion is only 0,418% (with a 100K load) at any frequency and there is no high frequency loss.

Now with a current mirror :

Click the image to open in full size.

All the performances are improved a lot ... The gain is much higher, 35 with a 1Meg load and 29,4 with a 100K load. With a - 2V bias, the output voltage swing can reach 49,51V with a 1Meg load and 41,58V with a 100K load, the distorsion is always lower than 2,2% at this high output voltage. So this tube can make a good driver for a pentode that need a much lower input voltage than that ...

At low output voltage (3,5V and 3V output), the gain is similar but the distorsion is lower than with the conventional "commun cathode stage" ... Below 0,3154% at all frequency and only 0,145% at 20 Hz ... This is very good for a 5$ tube on eBay...

So my verdict is : This tube is really good for small signal and acceptable for medium output voltage power tube driver. The current mirror configuration is perfect for a two stage magnetic phono preamplifier, they usually need a gain of 1000 for 1mV input at 20Hz and 1V output ... The first stage with a high impedance load can have a gain of 35 and the second with a 100K load or a bit less can have a gain of 29 ...

That is a total gain of 1015 at 20H, 101,5 at 1Khz and 10,15 at 20Khz to fit the RIAA curve equalisation. This is perfect for a 10mV magnetic cartridge and 1V output with a 35V "headroom" for very high output cartridge if the supply ia 220V or more, using an adjustable TO220 DN2540 current source ( maximum Vds = 400V ) with a very small heatsink just to keep the case below 45C ...

Alain.

Last edited by Alain Poitras; 12th December 2011 at 08:30 AM.
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