First of all: Consider the voltage rating for metal film! Ordinary metal film are 300 Volts!
Metal film are better in amlost every parameter except for transient power handling. Some types carbon resistors are better in this respect.
Which parameters are better:
Noise
Long term stability
Temp coeff
Resistance tolerance
Power handling (vs. volume)
My advise is to use metal film as much as you can.
Metal film are better in amlost every parameter except for transient power handling. Some types carbon resistors are better in this respect.
Which parameters are better:
Noise
Long term stability
Temp coeff
Resistance tolerance
Power handling (vs. volume)
My advise is to use metal film as much as you can.
I agree with peranders
Carbon resistor were used before Metalfilm resistor existed.
And before the transistor existed, there was only Tubes.
A lot of those nostalgic traditions in Audio Design Techniques
will be replaced, as time goes by.
A lot of old schematics has not been updated
to modern standards regarding component selection.
I would not go as far as to say that nothing was better
in them good old days.
There is certainly a lot of crappy things
in latest fashion. Never been tested and aproved.
There is too much of "monkey see monkey do",
that has no valid techniqual qualities.
In circuits of yesterday as well as of today.
But what can we do, if somebody wants to use
second best solutions by sentimental reasons?
/halojoy 2002
been watching the years go by
Carbon resistor were used before Metalfilm resistor existed.
And before the transistor existed, there was only Tubes.
A lot of those nostalgic traditions in Audio Design Techniques
will be replaced, as time goes by.
A lot of old schematics has not been updated
to modern standards regarding component selection.
I would not go as far as to say that nothing was better
in them good old days.
There is certainly a lot of crappy things
in latest fashion. Never been tested and aproved.
There is too much of "monkey see monkey do",
that has no valid techniqual qualities.
In circuits of yesterday as well as of today.
But what can we do, if somebody wants to usesecond best solutions by sentimental reasons?
/halojoy 2002
been watching the years go by
Carbon film resistors predate WWII and were used in some German radios and other equipment. I don't know when metal
film became affordable/popular.
There's also wirewound, though that's kind of expensive and
not readily available in really high values.
I'm starting my first tube amplifier project and have to consider
the same choices.
film became affordable/popular.
There's also wirewound, though that's kind of expensive and
not readily available in really high values.
I'm starting my first tube amplifier project and have to consider
the same choices.
Yes,
We must always remember that diyaudio is not even to 50%
a Hi-Fi Forum.
High Fidelity - to be true - in this case the signal on the output
should have as little difference as possible from the input signal.
This difference is also called distortion. Can be measured in various ways.
This is a diyAudio forum
Not an High Fidelity forum to 100%
Not an High End forum to 100%
Most of us happy homebuilders belong to THE BIG MAJORITY
who simple likes to listen to music, that we like
and that should sound the way WE like.
And we also like to be creative, build things with our own hands.
And get great joy out of that.
This MAJORITY is NOT to be IGNORED
here is where the fun part comes in
/wholojoy
a whole lotta joy
We must always remember that diyaudio is not even to 50%
a Hi-Fi Forum.
High Fidelity - to be true - in this case the signal on the output
should have as little difference as possible from the input signal.
This difference is also called distortion. Can be measured in various ways.
This is a diyAudio forum
Not an High Fidelity forum to 100%
Not an High End forum to 100%
Most of us happy homebuilders belong to THE BIG MAJORITY
who simple likes to listen to music, that we like
and that should sound the way WE like.
And we also like to be creative, build things with our own hands.
And get great joy out of that.
This MAJORITY is NOT to be IGNORED here is where the fun part comes in
/wholojoy
a whole lotta joy
I have never been able to getta like brown resistors.JoeBob said:
I am perhaps simply not used to the color.
I use mostly what I have at home.
This goes for food also. I take whatever I have in the refridge.
Resistors are superior in linearity compared to most other things.
As is wires and cables.
jh6you said:
G, I forgot maybe the reason for changing resistors. Technically, I think no tube amp really needs metal film. Why?
No low noise application (normally)
No demand for low tolerance (5% is enough)
No need for long term stability (tubes aren't very stable)
Heavy colouration from the tubes and transformers itselves. The contribution from resistors are minimal.
Weren't resistors before ~1970 carbon composite, NOT carbon film? I thought carbon film was a more recent invention.
Carbon composite resistors are hopeless- they can't handle the heat of a soldering iron, and tend to fail catastrophically after a few years, often to a short!
I use 1W carbon film resistors, never had a problem. 1/4 W metal films are too small and fiddly, I prefer the chunkiness of a 1W resistor, as well as its power handling capacity.
Carbon composite resistors are hopeless- they can't handle the heat of a soldering iron, and tend to fail catastrophically after a few years, often to a short!
I use 1W carbon film resistors, never had a problem. 1/4 W metal films are too small and fiddly, I prefer the chunkiness of a 1W resistor, as well as its power handling capacity.
Generally agree with what you posted peranders, but the modern carbons such as Kiwame and Riken are very good in these parameters too, and will have a higher voltage rating. Prices aren't too bad, esp for the Kiwames (2W ~ $US1 ea).peranders said:
Mills NIWW and Vishay, Meggitt and Caddock are also very good but the last two esp can be pricey. Mills 12W are good value IMO for their performance.
Cheers
Technically, I think no tube amp really needs metal film
ABSOLUTELY CLUELESS! Anybody that thinks that this is advice deserves to follow it. I am embarassed to read such nonsense which flys in the face of common sense and reality. I think that the reply must have been posted as a joke since nobody could be so misinformed. It is post like this make me wish I could put people in the sin bin.
ABSOLUTELY CLUELESS! Anybody that thinks that this is advice deserves to follow it. I am embarassed to read such nonsense which flys in the face of common sense and reality. I think that the reply must have been posted as a joke since nobody could be so misinformed. It is post like this make me wish I could put people in the sin bin.
Tollerance
Don't forget that most of the valves we use, were designed at a time when the resistors in service were +-20%. Not exactly cutting edge there
Consider also the spread of valve characteristics.
Taking those in mind, it becomes clear that the "tollerance race" is one of sharply diminishing returns.
Of course that doesn't mean there's no point. We all strive for excellence - even under unfavourable conditions.
Don't forget that most of the valves we use, were designed at a time when the resistors in service were +-20%. Not exactly cutting edge there
Consider also the spread of valve characteristics.
Taking those in mind, it becomes clear that the "tollerance race" is one of sharply diminishing returns.
Of course that doesn't mean there's no point. We all strive for excellence - even under unfavourable conditions.
Carbon composite - Carbon Metalfilm
Carbon Composite and Carbon Metalfilms
are quite different in caracteristics.
Also true that pure metalfilms doesn't often come in sizes that allow much power.
Ceramic Metalfilms (is that what it is called) can take some few watts.
It is also possible to use series or parallell combinations
to increase power tolerance.
Tubes needs some watts in the resistors, not in all places, but in several.
Carbon Film would maybe be the best choice in those places.
Of course development has been done both in Tubes and in "old" components.
Time doesn't stand still in any area.
The change rate can be very different between the areas
for the present time.
Shifty says it.ShiFtY said:
Carbon Composite and Carbon Metalfilms
are quite different in caracteristics.
Also true that pure metalfilms doesn't often come in sizes that allow much power.
Ceramic Metalfilms (is that what it is called) can take some few watts.
It is also possible to use series or parallell combinations
to increase power tolerance.
Tubes needs some watts in the resistors, not in all places, but in several.
Carbon Film would maybe be the best choice in those places.
Of course development has been done both in Tubes and in "old" components.
Time doesn't stand still in any area.
The change rate can be very different between the areas
for the present time.
This is a copy from http://westlabs.com/Resistors.HTML
JH
.....................
Q: Why do you recommend metal film resistors, when other boutique manufacturers recommend carbon composition?
A: Because they are the absolute quietest resistors available, with the exception of wirewound, which are not available in the high values used in tube amplifiers. Carbon composition resistors are the noisiest of all the resistor types, and will create a lot of "hiss" and "crackling" noises. They tend to drift in value with temperature, humidity, and time. Some people claim carbon comps "sound" better. I believe the tone of the amplifier should be achieved through the circuit design, not through something as wildly variable as a carbon composition resistor. The use of metal film resistors allows a stable, repeatable, and most importantly, quiet amplifier, which will sound as good and quiet ten years from now as it does today, unlike an amp which uses carbon comps, which will get noisy and drift in value over time, changing the tone of the amplifier and adding unwanted noises. How many old blackface and silverface Fenders have you heard that make hissing and crackling noises? Most of them do, particularly if they have been kept in humid climates, and it is usually the carbon comp plate resistors that are at fault. Precision metal film resistors cost more than other types, but they are worth it, in my opinion. Be sure to use at least a 1W metal film, as the voltage rating on the 1/2W and lower units is usually only 250V - 350V. I use 2W 750V 1% or 1W 500V 1% metal films. The 2W units have the lowest noise, but take up more space. If you can't get a great tone out of an amplifier using metal films, you are doing something wrong. The only thing you have to lose is the noise.
.....................
JH
.....................
Q: Why do you recommend metal film resistors, when other boutique manufacturers recommend carbon composition?
A: Because they are the absolute quietest resistors available, with the exception of wirewound, which are not available in the high values used in tube amplifiers. Carbon composition resistors are the noisiest of all the resistor types, and will create a lot of "hiss" and "crackling" noises. They tend to drift in value with temperature, humidity, and time. Some people claim carbon comps "sound" better. I believe the tone of the amplifier should be achieved through the circuit design, not through something as wildly variable as a carbon composition resistor. The use of metal film resistors allows a stable, repeatable, and most importantly, quiet amplifier, which will sound as good and quiet ten years from now as it does today, unlike an amp which uses carbon comps, which will get noisy and drift in value over time, changing the tone of the amplifier and adding unwanted noises. How many old blackface and silverface Fenders have you heard that make hissing and crackling noises? Most of them do, particularly if they have been kept in humid climates, and it is usually the carbon comp plate resistors that are at fault. Precision metal film resistors cost more than other types, but they are worth it, in my opinion. Be sure to use at least a 1W metal film, as the voltage rating on the 1/2W and lower units is usually only 250V - 350V. I use 2W 750V 1% or 1W 500V 1% metal films. The 2W units have the lowest noise, but take up more space. If you can't get a great tone out of an amplifier using metal films, you are doing something wrong. The only thing you have to lose is the noise.
.....................
Resistors
Hi,
Yeah Fred, I got tears in my eyes......
Please guys, read Horowitz Appendix D 1% precision resistors.
You tube addicts should also read pages with fig 6.53: <B><I>carbon composition resistors exhibit a reduction in resistance above 250 volts.</B></I> And in the text: <B><I>Carbon resitors run at higher voltages show astounding voltage coefficients, not to mention permanent changes of resistance.</B></I>
There also excisted a nice Reference Reading from Linear Technology:
Avoiding Passive-Component Pitfalls (Nice title in this context!) and the same paper was also on a Analog Devices CD-rom as Application Note 348. I couldn' t find either of these papers on the websites of these companies.
Hi,
Yeah Fred, I got tears in my eyes......
Please guys, read Horowitz Appendix D 1% precision resistors.
You tube addicts should also read pages with fig 6.53: <B><I>carbon composition resistors exhibit a reduction in resistance above 250 volts.</B></I> And in the text: <B><I>Carbon resitors run at higher voltages show astounding voltage coefficients, not to mention permanent changes of resistance.</B></I>
There also excisted a nice Reference Reading from Linear Technology:
Avoiding Passive-Component Pitfalls (Nice title in this context!) and the same paper was also on a Analog Devices CD-rom as Application Note 348. I couldn' t find either of these papers on the websites of these companies.
peranders had some little point
Not even the non swedish people
there is few of those around also
like Koreans Netherlanders and Paradisers
I have never been to Paradise, yet
--- but we will see - what will come ................
Music that plays extra good an a Tube amplifier (with or without C-atoms)
is:
"Pastime Paradise"
from the album "Songs In The Key Of Life"
Composed by Stevie Wonder 1976, only yesterday
I bought the vinyl but have also the CD
I have to be prepared for to get along both with the analogue and the digital friends
Anyone else who have a digital friend
their minds have no state in between
On the album are songs like:
- Love's In Need Of Love Today (send yours in right way)
- Have A Talk With God
- Sir Duke (we all know the swing of that one)
- Isn't She Lovely (with some autehentic sounds of a little girl)
she is probably over 30 now - but the document will
stay "Forever Young"
I think no one can deny this.peranders said:
Not even
the non swedish people there is few of those around also
like Koreans Netherlanders and Paradisers
I have never been to Paradise, yet
--- but we will see - what will come ................
Music that plays extra good an a Tube amplifier (with or without C-atoms)
is:
"Pastime Paradise" from the album "Songs In The Key Of Life" Composed by Stevie Wonder 1976, only yesterdayI bought the vinyl but have also the CD
I have to be prepared for to get along both with the analogue and the digital friends
Anyone else who have a digital friend
their minds have no state in between
On the album are songs like:
- Love's In Need Of Love Today (send yours in right way)
- Have A Talk With God
- Sir Duke (we all know the swing of that one)
- Isn't She Lovely (with some autehentic sounds of a little girl)
she is probably over 30 now - but the document will
stay "Forever Young"
Oops.
I just noticed in my first post in this thread, that I didn't note that the Kiwame and Riken carbon resistors, are carbon <i>film</i> not composition.
I use Kiwames often when replacing faulty or out of spec parts in older (vintage) tube gear. They are much quieter than the original resistors in some Fisher and Scott gear. I've also tried them in some positions in my newer amps and like the sound (vs MF). Subtle but noticable. In line level and power amps I haven't heard any difference in noise. The tolerance on the Kiwames is 5%, but every single one I've bought has been better than 1%.
I just noticed in my first post in this thread, that I didn't note that the Kiwame and Riken carbon resistors, are carbon <i>film</i> not composition.
I use Kiwames often when replacing faulty or out of spec parts in older (vintage) tube gear. They are much quieter than the original resistors in some Fisher and Scott gear. I've also tried them in some positions in my newer amps and like the sound (vs MF). Subtle but noticable. In line level and power amps I haven't heard any difference in noise. The tolerance on the Kiwames is 5%, but every single one I've bought has been better than 1%.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.