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Emperors new clothes and the sound of tubes

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dhaen said:
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Halojoy said:

quote:
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we are both a kind of stupid children
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Hey, is that a kind of Nordic backhanded compliment?
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Of course!
It is a Nordic Backhand!
And of the same kind that Björn Borg, Mats Wilander and Stefan Edberg used
when they defeated Connors, Becker, McEnroe and the rest of the bunch.
 
To all, and especially Halojoy

My current build project is a reincarnation of a previous project that used CF drive DC coupled to a DHT.
To my shame, (and partly as a result of peer pressure), I changed to "magnetic" coupling.
This thread has made me wonder:
Did I really do the right thing?
I have the transformers now. They sound beautiful, but then again so did the Cathode followers.

What would the panel do?

Cheers,
 
Joel, Frank et al, please pardon me for injecting something philosophical instead of purely electronic. Being rather new around here, I don't want to step between two such fine combatants. But this is a situation where you may indeed all be right- it may be a floor wax AND a dessert topping. The problem may be a matter of differences in design assumptions.

Some designers like to create a piece of electronics that process the signal in some way (other than the desired gain). The sound is tailored toward some desired end, something the designer considers "musical." And that's why there's little agreement between designers over time; their esthetic ideals are different. My wife likes Ethan Allen furniture, I like Scandinavian.

But the worst disagreement of all comes when one designer is trying to make his box have a sound that is esthetically pleasing to him (and presumably some social cohort with similar esthetics)and another is just trying to have the input and output of the box be audibly indistinguishable under conditions of use. Yes, Joel, it's possible to make a line preamp based on a 6SN7 sound exactly like a preamp based on a 6SL7. But those will be two different designs, and is certain to match only if both of the designs are tailored to make the outputs audibly match the input.

I think most would agree that if you just drop a 6SL7 into a 6SN7 circuit (or vice versa), they'll probably sound pretty different.

And I'll not mention the elephant in the room.
 
Prunes and cherries

Frank,
First you ask for a split up in the "Tubes" section now you talk tubes in the "Everything Else" section.
No, "I'm misunderstood";) .

I asked Peter to consider pruning or splitting the non-thread relevant material away from the preamp thread.
He pruned it, but planted the cutting in the Everything Else section.
I had expected it to be planted in the Tubes section - as all Cathode Followers are tubes.
Now it's where it belongs; Thanks Peter.
 
diyAudio Senior Member
Joined 2002
DESIGNSCHOOLS

Hello folk,

The emperor said:

But the worst disagreement of all comes when one designer is trying to make his box have a sound that is esthetically pleasing to him

If one were to design like that for personal home use I wouldn't object.
However claiming that such euphonic colourations and bandwidth curtailing are the way to go is upsetting.
I'm well aware that since the advent of the digital sources people try the impossible to make their system sound more pleasing and listenable.
However this is something that has to be tackled at source level,NOT futher down the line IMO.
And I don't mean by ways of detraction or pleasing colourations.

Those that remember the good old L**N TT will agree that although musically pleasing it also was far from truthful to the source.

another is just trying to have the input and output of the box be audibly indistinguishable under conditions of use.

That is IMO the only way to advance the current SOTA and the way I would design.
I'm also fully aware that no manufacturer can produce the ultimately universal gear pleasing all and fitting all possible systems and combinations thereof.

One can however develop a personal system independant of any mass product that comes very close to sonic perfection.
Hey,if the recording was badly made don't blame your gear for letting it through,blame the recording.

Good thing we still have DIY.:cool:

Ciao,;)
 
diyAudio Senior Member
Joined 2002
NEW CAPS OR NEW CLOTHS?

He,he


I expected the new thread to be more about clothes than tubes,

We already have someone in the clothing business:



Years and years ago, much ill magazine info made me a bad habit to change different parts including capacitors for the good sound. Mostly I was disappointed with the results. I was beginning to feel that the changing them was a kind of changing my suits for department store owners. These days, for the good sound, I focus more on the basic circuit. One day, I might return back to the old habit. The probability is however considered very low.

Sorry JH,just rying to lighten things up a bit.

Cherio,:cool:
 
Gotcha!;)

How about the bandpass filter between the 12AX7 and the 12AU7...

Funny, when you posted, it struck me as so similar to an amp I designed around 1987. That one was different in respect of the output stage (4*6550 in triode mode). It gave a lovely clean 50W.
Oh and it didn't include any band limiting, apart from the OPT.

Cheers,
 
diyAudio Senior Member
Joined 2002
FOR A REASON

Hello,

How about the bandpass filter between the 12AX7 and the 12AU7...

Fine.
And what is going to happen when you leave those out?
Those where the days that measured results prevailed,remember?
I'm pretty sure you'll see some ugly ringing if you bypass those.

Funny, when you posted, it struck me as so similar to an amp I designed around 1987.

In those days every self-respecting country had something along those lines:

France:

Ampliton
Cochet
Jadis.

U.K.

Michaelson&Austin
Lumley
Grant
D'Haen.

Cheers,;)
 
Frank,

As you yourself well know: The possibility of ringing will depend mainly on the layout and OPT.

And yes, I'm sure they're not unique.

The person I designed them for once said to me "how can we patent or copyright them?". My answer was that probably someone, somewhere else was doing the same thing - and if they can do it better or cheaper - good luck to them!
Incidentally, at that time I used to deliberately include one incorrect component value (say 51k instead of a 56K where the calculation called for a 54k), so that I would know if someone had copied my design. It never happened though!

Cheers,
 
diyAudio Senior Member
Joined 2002
COPYRIGHT

John,

Can I conclude it is not the one I posted?

It looked familiar to me too.
OTHO most circuits I have seen do.
I could be wrong but I think (without looking anything up) it is very similar to the TVA 1.

Anyway do you want to look into this?

Did I really do the right thing?
I have the transformers now. They sound beautiful, but then again so did the Cathode followers.

And the series reg as a CF?

Ciao,:cool:
 
Frank,

No criticism intended at all. The wine is white tonight. It makes a different timbre to my character....
Does it seem that I am looking for blood? Hell,no.
1987 KT88 PP amps are of little interest to me now. It's funny, all those "esoteric" designs were being done in The US and Japan (and in the UK by one person, not me; T DeP), and now I'm soddin' about doing the same thing - not commercailly either, theres no money in it as far as I can see unless you have a halo.

Much easier for me to make kit for broadcasters to monitor with.

Cheers,
 
diyAudio Senior Member
Joined 2002
JOHN-SAN

Hello,

Does it seem that I am looking for blood?

Rest assured I wasn't taking it that way at all and neither should you.:cool:


Mister esoteric himself.
I've met him a couple of times and he bought some EL519 from us years ago.
Very peculiar chap,making amps with ECC83 just to prove it can be done!:confused:
He did some very good OPT designs though.
I remember during one of our chats I asked him why he didn't do OTL amps.
His reply:I don't need to,my transformers are just as good.
End of conversation. :bigeyes:

Much easier for me to make kit for broadcasters to monitor with.

That was always a better market.
Selling one EIMAC to those guys meant six months of salary in those days.

Cheers,;)
 
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