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Cryotubes? Cryogenically Frozen valves

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It is pretty safe to say that if the method was not used for military, hi-rel and measurement applications, then it's likely bogus. many manufacturers in the aforementioned fields used various selection processes for tubes, but IIRC cryo treatment was not one of them. OTOH, I may just not be aware of ti, input from more experienced (read older ;) ) members would be most welcome.
 
Functioning tubes do involve the transfer of electrons and therefor the transfer of charges. Charged objects do exert physical effects on other charged objects. By this way, I can agree that the mechanical compliance could be a factor; unlike a semiconductor on a solid piece of silicone embedded in epoxy. So if parts are moving, they are moving closer and farther apart, or laterally. These things vary capacitance, and the distance an electron has to travel. Also, there will be some doppler effects created by emmitting a particle from a moving object (vibrating plate). Now i am not sure i believe that any of the effects may be audible, but if the resonance is in the audio band, it could be. Then we may consider the cryo treatment. I supposse this treatment works by contracting parts forcing their crystal structures to rearrange. I know that annealing does this, but not that 300F degrees is hot enough. If what they say is true then we would be left with materials with slightly higher damping than non treated ones. Will this slight change in damping be audible?

Now, i disagree with the comment about milspec tubes. I doubt this treatment adds to the power handling or the durability of the tubes, nor does it expediate their manufacture. Chances are a complex process like this, with little applicable benefit, would not be high on the military's priority list.

If I was sitting around with a system I could not think of any other way to improve, I might pick up a set of treated tubes.

I dont know the first thing about tubes.
 
Conning Audiophiles Again

"I dont know the first thing about tubes."

That's what these charlatans at "CryoValve" are counting on. Unforch, you aren't the only one who doesn't know what he's talking about:

During cryogenic tempering, the tube is slowly cooled to the -196ºC/-320ºF temperature of liquid nitrogen, "soaked" for many hours then slowly returned to ambient. By means of this unique and vital process, the interior stresses to the materials of the tube are substantially and permanently relaxed.

:bigeyes: :bigeyes: :bigeyes: :bigeyes:

This is utter nonsense. You DO NOT soften work hardened metals and/or alloys by means of extreme cooling. They don't even know what they're talking about! The process is properly called "annealing", and it always involves heating the metal. )In fact, this is already done during the initial pump down and getter flashing.) What they are describing is impossible. Furthermore, you will not find any data comparing a regular VT before and after this "treatment" (of course not :no: too much chance that no one could tell the difference.)

It's just another BS scam to get you to pay $200.00 for a $5.00 12AU7A.

If more people would put all that creative energy into actually designing, testing, and building quality VT amps and/or VTs, we'd really have something. :yes:
 
Ex-Moderator
Joined 2002
dstockwell said:

From the above website...

The "Q" of the (self) resonant (electro) mechanical systems responsible for the output of (self) microphonic spuriae is thereby drastically reduced. By this important reduction, both the peak amplitude and the "ring down" time of these systems is reduced with the result that the "apparent gain" of the device is increased-even in feedback controlled circuits-while the "dynamic noise floor" is lowered.

Excellent. That should produce some really impressive measurable data. If I had a process that could do that I would have charts and results right across my website. But I don't see any there...
 
Would not annealing the tubes also end up undoing other heat/cold treatments? Possibly just by running your tubes hot even, or do the metals they use not get hot enough in normal service?

The tube internals have already been annealed as a by product of the bake-out during the pump down to drive off the occluded gasses, and the flashing of the getter material that chemically entraps reactive gasses. In normal operation, the metallic parts don't get hot enough to anneal, and running metallic plates at red heat will probably ruin them before they have a chance to anneal.

There is no reason whatsoever for any "magical" heat/cold treatments beyond what's already been done other than to have an excuse to sell you a $5.00 tube for eighty times what it's legitimately worth.
 
Agree with Miles.....However Quote << the interior stresses to the materials of the tube are substantially and permanently relaxed.>> Rubbish treatment.... The MiL specs of most tubes for which many were designed for is far more than adequate.
Running power tubes hot enough in normal operation with getter fixed to anodes i.e 6550B's makes the getter function properly.That's all. xx Millions were made without speciality treatment and wouldn't be cost effective. I don't think my grandfathers eons ago would have even thought of this new coined marketing idea for cry'enic tubes. "....another ploy of worthless flannel.

richj
 
If you read some of the audio snob magazines you will find people who swear that they make everything wonderful. I have even received hate mail for bashing their wares on my web site.

Hey, If you have entirely too much money, then you need a reason to believe that your $50,000 stereo system sounds better than our home made ones. Right up there with the $200 power cords, and the "Magic Stones" that you put on top of each transformer to absorb the stray magnetism and clarify the sound.
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
I don't know about just freezing tubes, but i do know that the process that Bill Perkins of PEARL (http://www.pearl-hifi.com/) does make a clearly superior tube sonically. The heart of the process is a couple days in the LN, but that is only the start of what he does,

http://www.pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/07_Misc_Downloads/CryoValve_Ver_1.07.pdf

As well, it is interesting to note that Joe Rasmussen's V1.1 of his JLtI VBIGC is primarily the use of a cyro-treated tube + a T network in the feedback.

There are also a number of manufacturers that cryo treat tubes & other parts and don't tell anyone because they believe it gives them a better product and they keep it a trade secret to give them an edge over manufacturers that don't.

Cryogenics is used to enhance many items... not just tubes.

I believe that SY is conducting an experiment wrt to the PEARL treatment, having sent Bill a number of 6DJ8 family tubes, half of which will be left as is and half treated. SY will then measure distortion to see if the analyzer can see a difference.

dave
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
PS: i wrote the above before i knew the TubeDepot bit was in reference to Bill's process.

I'm not sure that Bill actually knows for sure what is happening, but hm & Ed Mitner (of DSD fame) started work on this stuff some 15-20 years ago and have a lot of experience. Bill is very much a measure guy (he has a wall of gorgeous -- mostly B&K -- test gear and he knows how to use it, sometimes in ways even the manufacturer never imagined) and is as much anti-hype & cynical as the guys saying bollucks....

As to the pricing -- if you saw the process, you'd know why, the actual freezing is probably the simplest & easiest part of the process. Actually if you saw the process you might ask how they can be done so cheaply. Also keep in mind that no marginal tube makes the cut (and from experience even the rejects can be quite excellent -- i ended up with 4 rejected 6922s)

Don't judge until you listen....

dave
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
I pointed this thread out to Bill and this is his response....

You can post this verbatim to the DIY Audio List, but it'll be short as
I'm busy tonite getting more CryoValve tubes out the door to people who have
-heard- the difference, liked what they heard, will not even consider the
purchase of an untreated tube, and want more.

As nearly always, I note that in the thread under consideration there is
-not one- correspondent who has actually run a direct, before/after
comparison. Yet, as always, there are several who claim superior knowledge.
This, while doing so on the basis of ZERO experience.
I am always torn between utter annoyance and complete bemusement with
such lines of . . . um . . . . let's be charitable and call it "reasoning."
By way of comment on this all-too-common and wholly lamentable state of
affairs I offer the following:

> When I was a mere prat of a lad, spinning wrenches in a long established
> local motorcycle shop I worked with a sweet old fellow who had as much to say
> about people as he did bike about bikes.
> In respect of people, one of his favorite observations was: "
>
> "The self-proclaimed expert is an ordinary man far away from home,
> and the farther away he goes the more "expert" he becomes."
>
> I note that an online forum is some very real "distance" from home.

Now, the matter of generating some hard data is one that has engaged my
mind for some time and at the beginning of '05 I instituted a serious
research project aimed at producing some serious results. Unfortunately a
bout of deep and quite severe illness intervened and while I did ferret out
the long-sequestered cause it'll be well into the spring of '06 before my
health, both physical and financial, will allow me to resume work on that
project.

In the meantime I suggest to all the blatherskite naysayers that they
put their money where their mouths are, arrange an ** audition ** of my
CryoValves and that done talk their talk on the basis the walk they walked.
And, until said baffle gabbers walk some walk it's my considered
suggestion that they sit down and shut up because they do not have one damn
thing to say . . . and to anyone whose mind need only be firing on as few as
6 out of 8 they look simply foolish.

Now, in the matter of the military application(s) of cryo treatment:
OF COURSE the military has used this process. How on Earth (literally) do
supposed they pre-condition any- and everything to go into space ? ?
Electronics, optics, mechanics, telemetry horns . . . you name it, it -all-
has to be pre-conditioned.

BP

dave
 
"Don't judge until you listen...."

Spoken like a true confidence man. In the first place, I will judge on what claims I see being made. In the first place, they have made one WHOPPER of a mistake calling the process "annealing". This is wrong: annealing of metals and alloys is a heat treatment, not a cooling treatment. This undermines whatever credibility they hope to establish.

Secondly, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. As pinkmouse noted in a previous post, there are claims that ought to be easily measured. There is not one iota of data presenting any sort of before treatment and after treatment test results. Why not? This is highly suspicious to say the least.

Finally, I don't see any sort of guarantee. I am not willing to put up some $200.00 for a tube that I can get for $4.50 just to listen to it. If I find that there is no real difference, then I'm out that $200.00. I'd rather invest that $200.00 in output iron where I know it will make a real difference.

In the meantime I suggest to all the blatherskite naysayers that they
put their money where their mouths are, arrange an ** audition ** of my
CryoValves and that done talk their talk on the basis the walk they walked.
And, until said baffle gabbers walk some walk it's my considered
suggestion that they sit down and shut up because they do not have one damn
thing to say . . . and to anyone whose mind need only be firing on as few as
6 out of 8 they look simply foolish.

Notice the ad hominem attack here. This is the tactic of one who has no arguement. Bill's entire rant has failed the Baloney Test

:dodgy: :dodgy: :dodgy: :dodgy:
 
I'm generally a HUGE naysayer when it comes to tweaks.. Cryo is actually something I have *some* faith in. I watched a pretty interesting show when this was becoming popular in the late 80's / early 90's regarding what was being cryo'd and why.

The explanation on the show was that when you take it down towards near absolute zero, the everything "settles". One of the interesting testimonies on the show was that the guy who did the report actually got a cryo'd disposable razor from the folks offering the cryo service. He then stated that a normal disposable razor would last him a week or two, and the cryo'd one had already lasted him 6 months, and still cut as fresh as a new razor.

So, will it improve their sound? Meh.. I don't know. But I would think that it could probably make the tube last considerably longer than it might have otherwise. I could see this service being important to folks who have rare tubes and would like to make sure that they get the maximum possible life out of them.
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
Miles Prower said:
of a mistake calling the process "annealing". This is wrong: annealing of metals and alloys is a heat treatment, not a cooling treatment.

Well if you actually read the document....

During a subsequent anneal, the tube is heated to 175°C/350°F...

seems he thinks an anneal is a heating process too...

Everyone seems to be focussing on the cryo part of the process... there is WAY more going on.

CryoVac-process.gif


That all the poorer performing tubes never get out the gate alone has to be worth something alone...

dave
 
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