Hey guys,
So, I was a little bored this morning, and I got to thinking about the commercial value of production amplifiers...
So, what are the most expensive TUBE amps you can think of, and what do you think the average cost to clone them would be (without purchasing the original to reverse engineer of course)?
Also, what is the most power you can get from a SET, if you want to go "all out". I've seen ratings in the 50-70 watts, and that seems quite high. Is is possible to get 100W from a SET?
What are the alternatives to tubes like the 211 and 845 for high power SETS?
Just hungry for food for thought!
Thanks,
Bryan
So, I was a little bored this morning, and I got to thinking about the commercial value of production amplifiers...
So, what are the most expensive TUBE amps you can think of, and what do you think the average cost to clone them would be (without purchasing the original to reverse engineer of course)?
Also, what is the most power you can get from a SET, if you want to go "all out". I've seen ratings in the 50-70 watts, and that seems quite high. Is is possible to get 100W from a SET?
What are the alternatives to tubes like the 211 and 845 for high power SETS?
Just hungry for food for thought!
Thanks,
Bryan
High Power SET
Ive been doing some experiments with the 811A but thats a smaller tube than the ones you mention--Works very well at the mo in P-P mode though..............
Take a quick look at George Anderson's Tubelabs, Hes been doing some experiments will the 833, a LARGE triode transmitting tube. He got something like 200W before his PSU sagged and limitted his power, and with quite low distortion too!
http://www.tubelab.com/833SE.htm
I think the limitting factor for power on the SET, is the cost of the PSU components (high voltage/current) and the HUGE amount of heat generated!
There are some VERY large glass triodes out there if you search around!--Ive got a triode, Its 18 inches tall, and four inches in diameter Massive thing, but its got O/C heater so no experiments with it! Guess one of those would give some power, Dont know the number, its so old and used its long gone!! Nice display piece though...........
Ive been doing some experiments with the 811A but thats a smaller tube than the ones you mention--Works very well at the mo in P-P mode though..............
Take a quick look at George Anderson's Tubelabs, Hes been doing some experiments will the 833, a LARGE triode transmitting tube. He got something like 200W before his PSU sagged and limitted his power, and with quite low distortion too!
http://www.tubelab.com/833SE.htm
I think the limitting factor for power on the SET, is the cost of the PSU components (high voltage/current) and the HUGE amount of heat generated!
There are some VERY large glass triodes out there if you search around!--Ive got a triode, Its 18 inches tall, and four inches in diameter Massive thing, but its got O/C heater so no experiments with it! Guess one of those would give some power, Dont know the number, its so old and used its long gone!! Nice display piece though...........
I'm too much of a newbie to answer the questions regarding SET power but in poking around over the past couple years I've seen some pretty expensive amps out there.
Check this site- http://www.electronluv.com/index.html
for some expensive hardware. Of course these are sculptures as well as working amps.
Check this site- http://www.electronluv.com/index.html
for some expensive hardware. Of course these are sculptures as well as working amps.
You're looking at it the wrong way. There are amp designs out there that you can make DIY, that most manufacturers wouldn't be game to for a lot of commercial reasons, eg size, weight, costs, availability of tube types etc. Some examples I can think of are Lynn Olson's Amity, Steven Robinson's SuperAmity and the partial (plate to plate) feedback amps from Gary Pimm.Bryan said:
Based on a lot of what I've heard in commercial amps, I think most if not all can be bettered by a DIYer with time and dedication and a whole lot less money.
When manufacturing, about 20% of the final RRP is component costs, but that can vary. Manufacturers with some volume to their lines, eg Audio Research will be able to get much larger volume discounts from suppliers and have transformers made to spec for much lower cost that you or I could from a manufacturer, one off. Or we may need to use a couple of transformers to get the final required secondaries. Some parts wouldn't be available in the quantities a company like AR would need either, such as Magnequest cobalt O/P transformers.
SET power
I believe the limiting factor with regard to Class A SE is the audio transformer. Two routes is high voltages or high current. Very high voltages requires lots of windings & primary impedances above 10K adding to leakage. A large lot of parallel connected tubes is reported to add smearing to the sonics.
Even 70-watts RMS is a lot of power & is not a difficult task for a large transmitter type triode.
I believe the limiting factor with regard to Class A SE is the audio transformer. Two routes is high voltages or high current. Very high voltages requires lots of windings & primary impedances above 10K adding to leakage. A large lot of parallel connected tubes is reported to add smearing to the sonics.
Even 70-watts RMS is a lot of power & is not a difficult task for a large transmitter type triode.
The true costs in producing comercial amps add up real quickly. If you were to figure in all the overhead involved in producing a comercial product I would think that the 20% number is too high. If you had an original amplifier design (not a copy of an existing product) with $100 worth of parts in it, it would sell for at least $750 to $1000, once you figure all the costs of producing, engineering, advertising, insuring, and selling that amplifier. This in not even counting the cost of getting safety (UL in the USA) agency aproval in EVERY country that you intend to sell it in. Now those $100 worth of parts will cost the average DIYer about $150 TO $200 since only one amp is being built.
Yes I have built an SE amp that puts out over 200 watts RMS. The limiting factor in big SE amps is definitely the output transformer. Make it big enough to get high power at low frequencies, and it has too much winding capacitance to do the high frequencies. I had a custom transformer made that works well for a guitar amp, but doesn't quite cover the whole Hi - Fi range. The 212 watts that I was getting was measured at 1 KHz. I am going to try again with Hammond 1642SE's. The results will be on the web site.
Yes I have built an SE amp that puts out over 200 watts RMS. The limiting factor in big SE amps is definitely the output transformer. Make it big enough to get high power at low frequencies, and it has too much winding capacitance to do the high frequencies. I had a custom transformer made that works well for a guitar amp, but doesn't quite cover the whole Hi - Fi range. The 212 watts that I was getting was measured at 1 KHz. I am going to try again with Hammond 1642SE's. The results will be on the web site.
At what power point do we start to question our speaker selection ??? Seems to me to be a squeeze out of medium effec speakers. The trend seems to be going either high effec > 100dB/w/m or very low < 85dB/w/m. There are advantages to both sides but why doesnt there seem to be any middle road choices ?? I dont think you'll find too many high power SET amps because of the safety issues. Look at the safety warning on grocery bag forget equipment that runs 2kV.
I agree, going from 86db speakers to 96db speakers is the same loudness increase as going from a 10 watt amp to a 100 watt amp. Unfortunately I have a small listening room, which is also the lab, and I have 86db speakers. My favorite amp ( Tubelab SE ) puts out 2 watts per channel with 45's. I am considering new speakers but given the size constraints the best I am going to find in my price range is about 95db. I was considering the Klipsch RB-35 but the local dealer wasn't interested in spending the time to let me try them with MY amp for ONLY a $550 sale.
My infatuation with BIG amplifiers has more to do with a desire to build something different. And the fact that I have 24 833A tubes. I had some 4-1000's but given the high plate impedance I know that transformers would be impossible, so they went on Ebay.
My infatuation with BIG amplifiers has more to do with a desire to build something different. And the fact that I have 24 833A tubes. I had some 4-1000's but given the high plate impedance I know that transformers would be impossible, so they went on Ebay.
For the last little while i have been trying to decide what direction i wanted my system to head in. I starting with thinking about a gm70 amp, i even went as far as to design one. I thus wanted to look for speakers i could match it with down the road as it wouldnt make any sense to build a 50w amp if i couldnt find any speakers in the low 90dB range to use it with. But i couldnt think of any speakers that excited me in the low to mid 90dB range. I have since given up the gm70 idea not because its not practical but because of time. Building a large tube amp takes alot of time which as of the new school year has dissapeared. Iam now looking for a used Conrad Johnson Premier 12 which gives me enough power to allow low effec spks. Iam an ASIC designer by day and a tube amp lover by night, i need a tube amp just as a change. Its a shame DIY has to take a backseat to real life.
Extra resouces to go big league
HFGuy
“I have since given up the gm70 idea not because its not practical but because of time. Building a large tube amp takes a lot of time”
I haven’t built a tube amp yet, though will reasonably soon do a preamp and a 2A3.
I’m considering a 300 SE/ PP, or 211/ GM70. The amp choice will affect what speakers I do.
I don’t have much spare time either. I thought eg trannies would be dearer, but that and volts aside, how much more time would a large tube amp take?
And would a GM70 cost much more than a 300 SE/ PP?
Thanks
HFGuy
“I have since given up the gm70 idea not because its not practical but because of time. Building a large tube amp takes a lot of time”
I haven’t built a tube amp yet, though will reasonably soon do a preamp and a 2A3.
I’m considering a 300 SE/ PP, or 211/ GM70. The amp choice will affect what speakers I do.
I don’t have much spare time either. I thought eg trannies would be dearer, but that and volts aside, how much more time would a large tube amp take?
And would a GM70 cost much more than a 300 SE/ PP?
Thanks
Re: Extra resouces to go big league
You could even have both built into the one chassis with the 2A3's OPT being used as anode loads for the 2A3's, then cap coupled to the output stages. When you don't need all the extra juice, don't power up the big tubes and connect your speakers to the 2A3 ouputs. It does then mean you have to connect your speaker cables via a plug and socket arrangement for convenience, and we all know how anal retentive 'philes can get about them......
I'd go for the Ralph Power / Stigla 2A3 design (maybe with a CCS in the 2A3 tail) or the Lynn Olson Petit Amity. Or whatever else you like in the 2-10W range. Heck trioded EL84's are excellent and will make great drivers for the bigger tubes.
This approach is larger, and will ultimately cost more, but you can have an amp running sooner, learn more (especially HV safety - can't reinforce that enough) and best of all will give you time to hunt around for surplus iron/caps/sundry parts for the HV output stage at a cost saving which can be put into the second set of OPT's.
Mind you ANY amp, properly built with transmitter type tubes will be big, heavy and expensive. And probably have low WAF.
The other alternative is to get sensibly efficient speakers and just settle for a smaller amp.
What you could do, is build your pre and a nice little PP 2A3. Then later, once you're confident with what you're doing, especially with regards to high voltage, add a 3rd stage to the poweramp being PP 845/211/813T/GM70. An extra PS would be needed for the output stage, but it's actually easier to build it this way rather than trying to find a single PT that will provide your (say) 300V for the drivers and 1000V for the outputs.rick57 said:
You could even have both built into the one chassis with the 2A3's OPT being used as anode loads for the 2A3's, then cap coupled to the output stages. When you don't need all the extra juice, don't power up the big tubes and connect your speakers to the 2A3 ouputs. It does then mean you have to connect your speaker cables via a plug and socket arrangement for convenience, and we all know how anal retentive 'philes can get about them......
I'd go for the Ralph Power / Stigla 2A3 design (maybe with a CCS in the 2A3 tail) or the Lynn Olson Petit Amity. Or whatever else you like in the 2-10W range. Heck trioded EL84's are excellent and will make great drivers for the bigger tubes.
This approach is larger, and will ultimately cost more, but you can have an amp running sooner, learn more (especially HV safety - can't reinforce that enough) and best of all will give you time to hunt around for surplus iron/caps/sundry parts for the HV output stage at a cost saving which can be put into the second set of OPT's.
Mind you ANY amp, properly built with transmitter type tubes will be big, heavy and expensive. And probably have low WAF.
The other alternative is to get sensibly efficient speakers and just settle for a smaller amp.
Why is more watts more work? It takes the same amount of parts doesn't it? They are only bigger.
Well, they might involve another gain stage, but that isn't that much extra work once you've begun soldering...
The chassis is often the biggest job...
Once you have all the parts and your soldering iron is hot...
Well, they might involve another gain stage, but that isn't that much extra work once you've begun soldering...
The chassis is often the biggest job...
Once you have all the parts and your soldering iron is hot...
More watts may not be a lot more work, but it is more money. More watts means bigger parts which costs bigger bucks. Since the parts are bigger, and heavier, the chassis will be bigger, and take more work to fabricate. More watts usually means more volts, which requires MUCH more care do deal with. This often requires more capacitors in the power supply, which is more work. The "work" factor begins to go up exponentially when the power level goes outside the expected norm. There is considerable "work" just finding parts to build a SE amp above the 50 to 75 watt level.
Brett proposed building an amp in "stages" starting with a 2A3 SE and adding a power stage using a transmitting tube. I think this is a good idea, and I have done this. I designed the Tubelab SE amp to be a 2 to 10 watt amp, which is also used as the driver board in my 845SE and my 833A SE amp. In fact I will build the board as a 45 SE amp and listen to it first, even if it is giong to be used as a driver board in a larger amp.
Brett proposed building an amp in "stages" starting with a 2A3 SE and adding a power stage using a transmitting tube. I think this is a good idea, and I have done this. I designed the Tubelab SE amp to be a 2 to 10 watt amp, which is also used as the driver board in my 845SE and my 833A SE amp. In fact I will build the board as a 45 SE amp and listen to it first, even if it is giong to be used as a driver board in a larger amp.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.