A Heretical Unity Gain Line Stage part II - Page 2

Andy Bartha · 17th June 2005, 04:35 PM

Sy,
I would like to congatulate you on a great thread. One thing that I have found is the R.F.I. filters that come on some of the I.E.C. connectors are detrimental to the sound of the unit that its on. I remove these type of I.E.C. connectors and replace them with regular I.E.C. connectors on every piece of audio electronics. I think you will find a very noticable improvement in sound. In this pre amp design you are planning proper filtering so there is no need for the R.F.I. filter. Please try this for yourself, compare with the filter to without filter. Find out for yourself.

Andy

SY · 17th June 2005, 04:38 PM

Do you think the problem is with specific filters or line filtering in general?

Andy Bartha · 17th June 2005, 05:05 PM

Sy,
I think this is a problem with this type of filter. In my opinoin this type of filter limlts current to the circiut. With out the filter there is no current limit. In my opinoin.
It will be nice to hear other thoughts on this subject.

Andy

leadbelly · 17th June 2005, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SY
One more detail that EC8010 nagged me about: in the heater string, if you reverse the position of the heater and the dropping resistor, the heater will be at a more positive potential, a Good Thing as far as potential noise from heater-to-cathode leakage is concerned. I'll change that in my preamp and on the drawing tonight.

I don't know this....is the design goal just to get the heater voltage as close as possible to the cathode voltage, or is it better to be above it?

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy Bartha
I think this is a problem with this type of filter. In my opinoin this type of filter limlts current to the circiut. With out the filter there is no current limit. In my opinoin.
It will be nice to hear other thoughts on this subject.

Well, it makes sense that if you are in the "fancy power cables sound better camp" that sticking one of those cheapie 3A rated filters would largely negate the benefits of the thick power cables. But those RFI filters do come in hefty 10A versions as well. Has anybody tried those?

Steve Eddy · 17th June 2005, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy Bartha
I think this is a problem with this type of filter. In my opinoin this type of filter limlts current to the circiut. With out the filter there is no current limit. In my opinoin.
It will be nice to hear other thoughts on this subject.

The AC line's not even in the picture the majority of the time. What ultimately provides the current for the circuit is the reservoir caps. The AC line's only in the picture for a very short time every 1/120th of a second as it tops up the caps during the refresh cycle.

Any current limiting on the part of the line filter would basically just result in a very slightly lower average supply voltage.

Now, those filters typically use common-mode caps (i.e. the caps that go from hot and neutral to safety ground) which can increase chassis leakage currents and in certain situations increase noise because of it.

But the current limiting issue is a non-issue in my opinion. But then I'm not a big fan of AC power in the first place.

se

Andy Bartha · 17th June 2005, 05:35 PM

I tried the 10A version also with the same effect. In this case it was a tube output cd player. It had one of the three amp filters in it and I replaced it with a non-filter I.E.C. and the sound improved. I then installed the 10A version of the R.F.I. filter and the sound went back to the same as with the 3A R.F.I. filter. So the current rating of the filter doesn't seem to make much diffrence. I can't explain why this is but this is my experiance.

Andy

SY · 17th June 2005, 05:38 PM

Leadbelly: Having the heaters biased positively with respect to the cathode is a plus. Not too high, but high enough that any heater-cathode diode effect is reverse biased.

philipbarrett · 17th June 2005, 09:21 PM

This is a great thread - thanks, y'all!

rdf · 18th June 2005, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy Bartha
...some of the I.E.C. connectors are detrimental to the sound....

Hi Andy, what changes do you hear? I've been experimenting with Spice-optimized micro-Henry air chokes in a tube amp power supply and wouldn't mind the sanity check. Thx in advance.

DaveInVA · 19th June 2005, 03:13 AM

"Raw, raw, raw, that's the spirits we have here!"

Hmm, another Firesign Theater fan .....

Shoes for industry.....

17th June 2005, 04:35 PM	#11
Andy Bartha diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oregon	I.E.C. with R.F.I. filter Sy, I would like to congatulate you on a great thread. One thing that I have found is the R.F.I. filters that come on some of the I.E.C. connectors are detrimental to the sound of the unit that its on. I remove these type of I.E.C. connectors and replace them with regular I.E.C. connectors on every piece of audio electronics. I think you will find a very noticable improvement in sound. In this pre amp design you are planning proper filtering so there is no need for the R.F.I. filter. Please try this for yourself, compare with the filter to without filter. Find out for yourself. Andy

17th June 2005, 04:38 PM	#12
SY diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicagoland Blog Entries: 1	Do you think the problem is with specific filters or line filtering in general? __________________ If there's a sucker born every minute, where do the rest of them come from?

17th June 2005, 05:38 PM	#17
SY diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicagoland Blog Entries: 1	Leadbelly: Having the heaters biased positively with respect to the cathode is a plus. Not too high, but high enough that any heater-cathode diode effect is reverse biased. __________________ If there's a sucker born every minute, where do the rest of them come from?

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17th June 2005, 05:05 PM	#13
Andy Bartha diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oregon	Sy, I think this is a problem with this type of filter. In my opinoin this type of filter limlts current to the circiut. With out the filter there is no current limit. In my opinoin. It will be nice to hear other thoughts on this subject. Andy

17th June 2005, 05:35 PM	#16
Andy Bartha diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oregon	I tried the 10A version also with the same effect. In this case it was a tube output cd player. It had one of the three amp filters in it and I replaced it with a non-filter I.E.C. and the sound improved. I then installed the 10A version of the R.F.I. filter and the sound went back to the same as with the 3A R.F.I. filter. So the current rating of the filter doesn't seem to make much diffrence. I can't explain why this is but this is my experiance. Andy

17th June 2005, 09:21 PM	#18
philipbarrett diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas	This is a great thread - thanks, y'all!

19th June 2005, 03:13 AM	#20
DaveInVA diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: VA	"Raw, raw, raw, that's the spirits we have here!" Hmm, another Firesign Theater fan ..... Shoes for industry.....