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Old 20th March 2004, 11:32 PM   #1
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Default Micing tube amps

Helloo again.
I have a question.. if you mic a tube amp with a regualr (or instument ) mic and a solid state PA system.. will it still have the nice warm and toney tube sound? i'm wanting to build a tube guitar amp, but i dont want to start off with a 100w one.. on the other hand i dont want to build on thats pretty small just to spend money and get experience. (noob here) so yea.. i'm just wondering if it would sound the same if you mic(d) a 5w tube amp with a 400w solid state.. thanks. oh.. one more question.. is there a difference between a regular amp and a guitar amp? i know guitar sounds horrible thru a PA system (electric.. with distortion, that is) but is that the amp or the speakers? i know guitar speakers dont have as much of a freq. range.. so is it only the speakers that make guitar sounds so much better thru a guitar amp? and is it bad for guitar speakers to be powered with a regular amp.. like will a reg amp try to put weird frequencies thru speakers that arent made for them? thanks a lot!
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Old 21st March 2004, 01:05 AM   #2
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Hi,

Quote:
is there a difference between a regular amp and a guitar amp?
Ah, that part I can answer with a modicum of confidence...

If you were to build yourself a tubed guitar amp or a tubed audio amp it wouldn't make all that much of a difference.

The goals, however, are totally opposite, one seeks distortion that gives that particular sound the player is after, while the other needs to track the input signal as faithfully as possible without adding any of it's own.

Cheers,
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Old 21st March 2004, 02:06 AM   #3
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The answer to all your questions is, "you could, but thats not the point." You are correct, Guitar amp speakers are different from typical speakers. Likewise Guitar amps are different from typical amps. You could mate any of the above options to each other but Guitar amps are built for Guitar speakers so its in your best interest to use them together. Guitar amps tend to be more different from the "typical" than speakers are in this situation however so it might work as well to use a Guitar amp with a typical midrange/woofer.

On wattage:
A 25watt tube amp can easily be as loud as you need in most venues short of stadium sizes. The issue involved hear is the "sensitivity" of the speaker. If you drive a 95db sensitive speaker with a 25watt tube amp youll be surprised by the ammount of volume you can get.

On micing:
Yes they will sound different, but it has nothing to do with the reinforcement system. The two types of amplifiers just sound different naturally. A good sound reinforcement system should be able to convay both amp's qualities equally, if it doesn't get a new sound guy, or new gear, or both.

There are lots of DIY Guitar amp pages online, as well as a whole mess of vintage schematcis for FENDER and VOX, ect. Look at these options. For a newbie your best bet might be to go with a kit amp and build the speaker from scratch for the first one.

IMHO tubes are great things, in fact I think that they are the best things, highly recomended over any and all solidstates.

milo
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Old 21st March 2004, 03:00 AM   #4
imix500 is offline imix500  United States
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Agree-ing with Frank, guitar cab speakers are purpose built. They sound pretty horrible as full-range PA speakers because they have a limited frequency range, much narrower than a run-of-the-mill PA cabinet. But most PA cabs don't have the timbre, or tone, that guitar cabs are built to reproduce right out of a guitar amp. Now a PA system can absolutely reproduce the tone of a guitar cab if the following are true:
the cabinet is miced correctly
an appropriate mic is used a.k.a an SM57 or an E609
the sound console is of good quality, cheap consoles often sound that way
and good quality PA cabs are used.
So on that question, it comes down to having the right equipment and the knowledge on how to make it all work together.

-Ricky
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Old 21st March 2004, 03:06 AM   #5
imix500 is offline imix500  United States
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Woops, I was refering to what Milo said actually.
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Old 21st March 2004, 04:28 AM   #6
SHiFTY is offline SHiFTY  New Zealand
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Yes, mikeing (?) a small tube guitar amp is commonplace and works very well. A 5 watt champ style design can give really nice overdrive and is a LOT easier to move around. Apparently the band KISS used a Champ miked up to the PA, the walls of Marshall speakers were just empty boxes!

Remember that a guitar amplifier (and speaker) creates the sound, with lots of distortion, primitive speakers, feedback & noise etc etc. It is part of the instrument.

The job of the PA (or a hi-fi amp) is to faithfully re-create an amplified version of the original sound. Whatever you put in, you get out unchanged, just louder. Also sound mixing people will love you, because they can control how the guitar mixes in wih the rest of the instruments.

I can recommend the Fender Princeton 5F2-A circuit as a great sounding easy to build amp. Volume and tone control, power about 5W. You could improve the power supply a little, but its a good little amp. I have built and sold two of them.
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Old 21st March 2004, 04:33 AM   #7
imix500 is offline imix500  United States
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Yes we engineers love low stage volume.
And the cabinets on the kiss tours were just empties, actually they had the cone and surround assembly, just no magnet structure or voice coil. They were Fane speakes as I rememeber. The gag is still used today, except it's all eminence cones now, they're cheap and look better.
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Old 21st March 2004, 05:33 AM   #8
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anyone know how to spell it? mikeing? micing? how bout past-tense.. miced? miked? hmm.. oh well.. thats weird that they were just empty boxes.. ya never woulda thought.. but at 500 each i can see y they wouldnt want to buy all those cabs... anyways.. i think i'm gunna build a 5w or so guitar amp.. it'll be my first amp project.. which should be fun.. and (lucky me) i have an electronics nut in town to help me (he lives up north most of the year).. he sed he'd love to build a tube amp as long as i pay for it lol. thanks for all the help and info!
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Old 21st March 2004, 04:46 PM   #9
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Default Guitar simulation Vs moving the air

Quote:
Yes we engineers love low stage volume.
Then I could have been the love of your life . For 10 years I've been playing with a Roland VG8 on the floor and a rack with a Marshall JMP-1 and a Roland GX-700, always directly connected to the PA, since the amp simulators of the VG-8 and the GX-700 are very good. Sometimes I did monitor only through the the PA monitors, sometimes I used JBL-eon15 full range speakers (when I didn't trust the stage monitoring system).

Some guitarist say that there is nothing like "feeling the air move from your amp", but making A/B test from the audience or listening to the recorded sound you can't notice the difference.
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Old 21st March 2004, 07:47 PM   #10
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It is most commenly spelled "miking" and "miked". "miced" would be holding your pet mouse up to the amplifier. Although I gues you could make the same arguement with "miked" and your friend Mike. Either way panic would insue.

I misstyped in my previous post. sorry.

Milo
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