• WARNING: Tube/Valve amplifiers use potentially LETHAL HIGH VOLTAGES.
    Building, troubleshooting and testing of these amplifiers should only be
    performed by someone who is thoroughly familiar with
    the safety precautions around high voltages.

How much voltage won't kill me?

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It's the volts that jolts, but the mills (mA) that kills.

20mA is sufficient to kill you. Human bodies are mainly composed of water, so they're very conductive. (Dry) skin resistance tends to limit current, but in the wrong circumstances, such as on an operating table, a 9V battery could kill you. Under more normal circumstances, anything over 50V is considered to be hazardous.

To be honest, if you have to ask the question, you shouldn't be contemplating an amplifier with 1kV inside it.
 
10000V is not lethal if you know what you are doing, 50V can be lethal if you do something foolish.

Earlier I worked with radar equipment with ~10000V but we learned to work using only one hand with the other in the back pocket, however 220V AC almost killed me at one time when I fooled around.

Regards Hans
 
The last time people started talking like this the moderators went into a tizzy. I ended up getting sin binned for mentioning actual numbers.
Curiously, I never could get the moderators to actually take a stand on what amount of voltage was safe and what wasn't.
The catch here is that if you go to zero volts in search of "absolute safety," you might as well shut the whole DIY site down. Projects won't work without electricity and electricity is at least potentially dangerous. If you're going to try to build something that works, you'll need volts and a discussion of what voltages can be tolerated by the human body is appropriate.
I guess it's just easier to panic.
Fear, however, isn't an appropriate reaction. Respect electricity, but do not fear it.
Suffice it to say that I've built tube circuits and been hit by the full rail straight off the power supply caps (mid three digits...let's not scare the moderators by mentioning numbers). Usually across one arm, but at least once across both--meaning across my chest, i.e. my heart. It hurt. I cussed. I'm still here.
Different people's physiology may react differently, so someone with a weak enough heart might keel over if they touched a 1.5V battery. I routinely touch 9V batteries to my tongue to test them. With practice, you can ttell how much life is left in the battery that way. Yes, it stings.
The most voltage I've ever taken was in the five digit range (car ignition--the guy who closed the connection thought it was really funny) and I took that one across the chest, too.
Of course, you could get hit by a meteorite lying in bed, or a terrorist might decide to blow up the store you're in, or the plane you're flying in might...
Safety is relative, not absolute, though some people seem to have difficulty absorbing that idea. It's up to you to choose how safe you want to be. Weigh your desire to pursue electronics against the shock hazard. Anyone who has been doing this for any length of time has been shocked. I'm sure that some statistical percentage of folks who do electronics die. What that percentage is will be hard to guess. It'll be buried under all the other accidental electrocutions from bad wiring in blenders and downed power lines from storms.
If you decide to go ahead, make sure that you've got a good collection of cuss words handy. You're going to need them.

Grey
 
So when i am doing with only one hand i can´t got electric shock?

No, it is not that easy but what I tried to say is that if you know what you are doing no voltage how high it can be is actually dangerous.

If you dont feel that you are confident in handling high voltage equipement I think you shouldn't, I was building amplifiers using 750V when I was about 14years old but I was educated by my father how to work in a safe way.

There is nothing especially dangerous with high voltages that can't be easily avoided if you are not going to play with 10000's of volts when corona effects and other nasty things come into play.

Regards Hans
 
Many thanks all of you, i have been hit only 220v, it is standard voltage here in Europe, it wasn´t so horrible. I often touch 9V batteries to my tongue to test them too, but i never got 750v shock, so i don´t know if my heart will sustain the shock. I have heard that big electricity can jump on me.
 
There is no easy answer to this. As a kid I played with lots of things I should not have. I have been stung many times by the 220v mains, It was the weirdest feeling... not pleasant. It was like hundreds of needles surging from the point of contact (hand) through the body down to my feet several times a second.... 50 to be exact .(Yes I was barefooted, stupid... and an 8 year old then.)

Also I routinely get blasted with 80vdc to 160vdc working on high power amps today. Suffice to say I am thick skinned.... you may not be.

Therefore mentioning numbers is not a responsible thing to do based on how your body reacts to various voltages.

If you ask me, 700v is not much different than 1000v, if you will get shocked by one, chances you will be by the other.

No one can or should tell you what is a safe level. What we can all do is to observe safety precautions.

Just be EXTRA careful, your live is more than just yours..... :whazzat:
 
The problem is that there will always be people recounting stories about surviving xxx volts (or even xxxx volts !) , but, not suprisingly, you will not see any from those who didn't survive :whazzat: . Even if you once survived a shock of xxx volts do not assume that you will survive the next.

If you want to build tube circuits it is vertually certain that you will be working with voltages that are easily capable of killing you. Accept the risk (taking suitable precautions) or move on to solid state (generally less lethal).


D
 
Hi

Curiously, I never could get the moderators to actually take a stand on what amount of voltage was safe and what wasn't.

Maybe it's because there is no such thing. As you know, same amount can just hurt someone and kill the next. It depends on the person and circumstancies.

If I were to build a tube amp I'd regard HT as highly dangerous and capable of killing me, independently of being 300,500,1200V...

I'd also be looking at voltage ratings of my instruments (like multimeter) and make sure they can handle it.


Guilherme.
 
The last time people started talking like this the moderators went into a tizzy. I ended up getting sin binned for mentioning actual numbers.
Curiously, I never could get the moderators to actually take a stand on what amount of voltage was safe and what wasn't.
(snip)
If you're going to try to build something that works, you'll need volts and a discussion of what voltages can be tolerated by the human body is appropriate.

There's the problem in a nutshell- there IS no such thing as a particular voltage that's safe and one that's dangerous- it's the current that kills, and how much it takes is a complex function of contact points, contact resistance, duration, and doubtless other factors. When someone naive wants to work with a kilovolt circuit capable of delivering serious current, I'll take tizzy over dead member every time.
 
No, you can hurt yourself all day with shocks this way. It's just that if you manage to put yourself in the morgue while using one hand, you'll be a Darwin Award nominee.
LOL!

There is some data available. Back at school we used a book (NEN1010) that had tables showing what kind of injuries you got when shocked at different voltages & currents.
I don't know if that book is still used though, all the data in it came form experiments the Germans did in the 2nd WW on innocent ppl. I guess the data is still used today, but he source is kept secret.
 
Electrical Safety. Long Post!

I work in the power industry and we do lots of stuff for electrical safety.

Here are a few items from a manual with inappropriate sections removed. Be aware there are lots of resources on the net for electrical safety. Many people have been killed from being to cavalier around electricity, including where I work!

Electrical Safety Work Rules

6.2 Safe Working Distance From Unguarded
Energized Conductors
• When work is performed by any personnel in the vicinity
of energized conductors or exposed equipment, the personnel
shall ensure that a safe distance from such conductors
or exposed equipment is maintained. These
safe distances are described below in Sections 6.2.1
and 6.2.2. Work required to be performed closer than
the safe distances specified shall be controlled per
Section 6.4.

“Barricades and Barriers” shall be used when necessary
to prevent unauthorized personnel from entering an
area containing exposed energized conductors or equipment.
A suitable protective device constructed of a
dielectric material such as rubber, plastic or treated
wood is to be used to provide an insulating barrier to
prevent personnel from contacting, or materials from
falling into, or otherwise making contact with energized
conductors or equipment.
• Chains, rings or other jewelry are not permitted in the
proximity of energized equipment.
• Employees shall not approach or take any conductive
object within the safe working distances as specified
below.


• Minimum safe distances may be affected by dusty or
otherwise degraded atmospheres. Always attempt to
eliminate the degraded atmosphere prior to commencing
work.

6.2.2 All Other Energized Conductors or Exposed
Equipment
• 0 to 1,000 volts Avoid contact
• 1,001 to 15,000 volts 2 ft. 1 in.
• 15,001 to 36,000 volts 2 ft. 4 in.
6.3 Working on Energized Equipment
All electrical conductors or equipment shall be considered
energized until the conductors or equipment has been
verified de-energized using the Live-Dead-Live (LDL)
method. The LDL method consists of:
• Verify meter operation to be correct by checking a
known power source.
• Check the conductor or equipment with the meter.
• Re-verify meter operation to be correct by checking a
known power source.


employees are required to wear the flame resistant coveralls
and appropriate rubber gloves when:
• Performing energized electrical work on any 600 volt or
greater circuits,
• Performing hi-potting, or
• Performing megger testing at 600 volts or greater.

All employees working on energized equipment of less
than 600 volts are required to wear 100% natural fiber
clothing. Any time electrical protective rubber gloves are
required, 100% natural fiber clothing shall be worn.
All personal clothing worn inside flame resistant coveralls
shall also be made of 100% natural fiber. Fabrics such as
acetate, nylon, polyester, and rayon or blends of these
fabrics are not allowed.
Section Six
E
6.4 Energized Work Closer Than Allowable Safe
Distances
When work is required to be performed closer than the
allowable safe working distances specified in Section 6.2,
the following minimum requirements shall apply:
0 to 50 volts
No requirements other than normal PPE unless an
increased exposure to electrical burns or exposure due to
an electrical arc is present.
51 to 600 volts
• Barricade, if necessary• Safety Glasses
• Class 00 rubber gloves for use up to 500VAC (rubber
glove must extend one-half (½) inch
beyond the leather glove protector, if used)
• Class 0 rubber gloves for use up to 600VAC (rubber
glove must extend one (1) inch beyond the leather
glove protector, if used)
• Leather glove protectors shall be worn if the conductor
is above 250 volts or if any object in the vicinity of work
being performed could cut through the glove.
• Hard hat
• Safety shoes
• 100% natural fiber clothing
601 to 17,000 volts
• Barricade
• Flame resistant coveralls
• Face shield
• Safety Glasses
• Class II rubber gloves (rubber gloves must extend two
(2) inches beyond the leather glove protector)
• Leather glove protectors
• Hard hat
• Safety shoes
• 100% natural fiber clothing
• Supervisor present
• Observer present wearing required safety equipment
17,001 to 26,500 volts
• Barricade
• Flame resistant coveralls
• Face shield
• Safety Glasses
• Class III rubber gloves (glove must extend 3 inches
beyond the leather glove protector)
• Leather glove protectors
• Hard hat
• Safety shoes
• 100% natural fiber clothing
• Supervisor present
• Observer present wearing required safety equipment
6.4.1 Observer Safety Person
An observer safety person shall be designated for all
energized work over 600 volts. The observer must don all
safety equipment specified for the voltage to be worked.
The observer’s responsibilities include:
• Being present before work is started.
• Warning workers of energized equipment and repeat as
necessary.
• Giving workers being observed your complete attention.
• Do not leave the work area until the workers are out of
danger.
• The observer cannot act as the workers’ assistant or
supervisor.
6.5 Exceptions To The Use Of Rubber Gloves
• When using properly insulated test leads carrying 480
volts or less.
• When using approved fuse pullers to replace cartridge
fuses on circuits energized at 300 volts or less and not
carrying more than 10 amps of current.
Section Six

• When handling, plugging, and unplugging extension
cords and appliance cords energized at 140 volts or
less.
• When the use of rubber gloves is impractical on circuits
energized at 300 volts or less, providing:
• The employee must use insulated tools (tools
must meet IEC900 or ASTM F1505-94 standards),
and
• Energized exposed terminals that could be
contacted should be covered or the employee
must insulate him or herself from any conductive
object at a potential different from the
energized equipment being worked on.
• When handling direct current equipment carrying not
more that 50 volts.
• Any time the safe working distances as specified in
Section 6.2 can be maintained with the exception of
6.9kV switchgear cubicles as specified in Section 6.10.




6.8 Protection Against Ground
• While working on all energized equipment, employees
should keep their bodies properly insulated from
ground.
• Extra precautions are necessary to prevent injury from a
shock due to live circuits while working from damp or
wet surfaces. Under such conditions, employees shall
use additional insulation as determined by the employee
and supervisor, to prevent current from grounding
through their bodies.


6.9 Handling Fuses
• Switches shall be fully opened on any circuits 300 volts
or above before removing fuses.
• When possible, all circuits shall be de-energized before
replacing fuses.
• Fuse pullers shall be suitably insulated for the circuit
voltage on energized circuits.
• Suitable protection for the voltage being worked shall be
used.
• When removing fuses the live end shall be pulled first.
• When replacing fuses the load end shall be inserted
first.



6.12.1 Care of Rubber Gloves
• Rubber gloves shall be protected from contact with any
substance, which could cause deterioration of the rubber.
• Rubber gloves must not be stored where they will be
exposed to sun rays, excessive heat or light.
• Rubber gloves shall not be stored in a sharply bent
position.
• When not in use, rubber gloves will be stored in clean
glove bags or factory shipping boxes or approved storage
bags.
• Rubber gloves shall be washed frequently with mild
soap and water and shall be kept free from embedded
foreign material.
6.12.2 Inspection of Rubber Gloves and Leather
Protectors
• Rubber gloves shall be inspected immediately prior to
each use
• Rubber gloves shall be verified to have been factory
tested within the past six (6) months prior to use. If the
gloves have not been issued, they may be used one
time, then must be factory tested prior to the next use.
• Rubber gloves shall be inspected for holes by the air
test methods.
• Inspect the entire glove surface for mechanical defects
such as scratches, cracked rubber, snags, blisters or
any foreign material.
• Leather glove protectors shall be inspected for cuts,
tears, contamination from oils or other liquid and any
other damage that would degrade the glove’s use.
• Rubber gloves and leather protectors having any defect
whatsoever shall be destroyed.

6.20 Discharging Capacitors
When capacitors are disconnected from the line, they
must be considered energized until they have been
short-circuited and grounded. Two bushing capacitors
must have both bushing terminals short-circuited and
grounded. Single bushing capacitors must have the
bushing terminal grounded before they are considered
as de-energized.
 
This thread rates way up in the list of the stupidest threads on the site.
I strongly encourage the starter of this thread NOT to build any tube equipment.

Grey,
respect the high voltage? Quite honestly I am amazed that you persist with posts like these on this subject.
What the ******* is your point exactly? I mean I "think" I am getting the general idea but the audience is not exactly ready for this high level philosophical discussion.

Folks,
if you get into tubes, which is very fine by the way, the first project should be to get your laboratory up to snuff for high-voltage. This should take as much time or longer than the building of the amp itself. You should read about how the people that know how to do it do it, there should be no alligator clips flying around, everything should be well spaced out and bolted down. You should know that your instrumentation can handle the voltage, and how to get around that if they don't. Everything should be set up so that all the voltage is discharged quickly after the power is removed etc.
I would wear a pair of thick rubber gloves if you plan to putz around with your circuit and make adjustment under high voltage conditions.

PS thanks Tony, you posted this great guideline as I was writing.
 
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