Thorsten, what film capacitors do you use?
I googled the net for "film capacitors" and one site came up which is Electrocube.
On the page, it said "Standard AC & DC Film Capacitors by Electrocube" but in the list it says:
Metallized Polyester, Polyester Foil, Polystyrene Foil, Metallized Polycarbonate, Metallized Polypropylene, Polypropelene Foil
Does that mean any of these will fit your description of "film" capacitors?
I googled the net for "film capacitors" and one site came up which is Electrocube.
On the page, it said "Standard AC & DC Film Capacitors by Electrocube" but in the list it says:
Metallized Polyester, Polyester Foil, Polystyrene Foil, Metallized Polycarbonate, Metallized Polypropylene, Polypropelene Foil
Does that mean any of these will fit your description of "film" capacitors?
anybody can reply of course.
A capacitor primer
You're talking about capacitors. A capacitor is made of two conductive plates separated by an insulator known as the dielectric.
The relative permittivity of the dielectric multiplies the capacitance of the finished capacitor compared to air. Examples of Er:
Ceramic: 2 -100
Aluminium oxide (electrolytic capacitors): 7
Plastic films: 2 - 5
Air: 1
Dielectrics are not perfect insulators. Some are leakier than others. Best to worst: PTFE, polystyrene, polypropylene, polycarbonate, polyester, electrolytic, ceramic.
The conductive plates of the capacitor can be made of rigid metal sheet (as in an air-spaced variable capacitor), metal foil, or a thin metal coating can be sputtered onto the plastic film. Thinner plates allow the capacitor to be smaller for a given value, but raise the Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR). Low ESR often seems to sound better in coupling capacitors, and may be necessary in power supplies.
There are lots of other issues with capacitors. As a very crude generalisation, the smaller the volume for a given capacitance, the poorer the quality.
You're talking about capacitors. A capacitor is made of two conductive plates separated by an insulator known as the dielectric.
The relative permittivity of the dielectric multiplies the capacitance of the finished capacitor compared to air. Examples of Er:
Ceramic: 2 -100
Aluminium oxide (electrolytic capacitors): 7
Plastic films: 2 - 5
Air: 1
Dielectrics are not perfect insulators. Some are leakier than others. Best to worst: PTFE, polystyrene, polypropylene, polycarbonate, polyester, electrolytic, ceramic.
The conductive plates of the capacitor can be made of rigid metal sheet (as in an air-spaced variable capacitor), metal foil, or a thin metal coating can be sputtered onto the plastic film. Thinner plates allow the capacitor to be smaller for a given value, but raise the Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR). Low ESR often seems to sound better in coupling capacitors, and may be necessary in power supplies.
There are lots of other issues with capacitors. As a very crude generalisation, the smaller the volume for a given capacitance, the poorer the quality.
ec8010, thanks for the primer.
geirw, i will use them to get rid of electrolytics in my amplifier, from PSU to bypass.
i have a bunch of solens, electrocube, MKP, MKT, etc.
since capacitors affects the signal as they obviously are part of the circuit, and electrolytic is the least desirable, i was thinking of using, say the MKT or Electrocube polypropylene on the PSU, Solen PPE (metallized polypropylene) on the bypass and ultrapath.
any other combinations you have tried?
geirw, i will use them to get rid of electrolytics in my amplifier, from PSU to bypass.
i have a bunch of solens, electrocube, MKP, MKT, etc.
since capacitors affects the signal as they obviously are part of the circuit, and electrolytic is the least desirable, i was thinking of using, say the MKT or Electrocube polypropylene on the PSU, Solen PPE (metallized polypropylene) on the bypass and ultrapath.
any other combinations you have tried?
worst to best: ceramic, tantalum, electrolytic, mica, mylar, polycarbonate, polystyrene, polypropylene, teflon, foamed polypropylene, foamed teflon, air
Some of the above are not films, of course. Some ceramics and electrolytics can be really inaccurate in surprisingly 'appealing' ways, such as smearing over low level nasties in grungy source material or in the way they color the sound. Not sure why some people love polystyrenes so much. They've always sounded hot and grainy to me. Of course, polypropylenes tend to err in the opposite direction but not as much. Foils have always sounded better than films to me and solid leads more detailed (if not necessarily as balanced)than stranded, but I'll take the solid leads because it's easy enough to correct balance elsewhere. No capacitor with copperweld leads is worthy of serious audio use.
Some of the above are not films, of course. Some ceramics and electrolytics can be really inaccurate in surprisingly 'appealing' ways, such as smearing over low level nasties in grungy source material or in the way they color the sound. Not sure why some people love polystyrenes so much. They've always sounded hot and grainy to me. Of course, polypropylenes tend to err in the opposite direction but not as much. Foils have always sounded better than films to me and solid leads more detailed (if not necessarily as balanced)than stranded, but I'll take the solid leads because it's easy enough to correct balance elsewhere. No capacitor with copperweld leads is worthy of serious audio use.
currently i've an all electrolytic amp (except for the coupling which is either Jensen or MIT RTX). i find it difficult to hear differences when i go from unknown electrolytic to nichicon muse to sprague atom to black gate, and the cost increment does not seem to justify. of course, there may have differences when measured.
and since many people, thorsten included, suggests using film caps instead of electrolytics, so i'd like to give it a shot.
and since many people, thorsten included, suggests using film caps instead of electrolytics, so i'd like to give it a shot.
Hi,
Since it's for the PSU you'll probably require large values at high voltages?
Consider paper in oil caps such as ASC. I think Partsconnexion carries them, probably a number of others too.
A major source of unwanted colouration are the cathode bypass caps.
Black Gates can perform miracles in this position but they're not cheap.
Cheers,
Since it's for the PSU you'll probably require large values at high voltages?
Consider paper in oil caps such as ASC. I think Partsconnexion carries them, probably a number of others too.
A major source of unwanted colouration are the cathode bypass caps.
Black Gates can perform miracles in this position but they're not cheap.
Cheers,
hi frank,
right now my amps use Black Gate capacitors for bypass, MIT RTX or Jensen or Auricap coupling capacitors, a mix of Sprague Atom, Nichicon Muse, Audio Professor (47uF x 2) one PSU related parts.
i just wanted to hear an amp without any electrolytics in it. so i'm progressively replacing the electrolytics on my Gordon Rankin Bugle 45.
it actually becomes more expensive with these Solen PPEs!
cheers!
right now my amps use Black Gate capacitors for bypass, MIT RTX or Jensen or Auricap coupling capacitors, a mix of Sprague Atom, Nichicon Muse, Audio Professor (47uF x 2) one PSU related parts.
i just wanted to hear an amp without any electrolytics in it. so i'm progressively replacing the electrolytics on my Gordon Rankin Bugle 45.
it actually becomes more expensive with these Solen PPEs!
cheers!
Re: Thorsten, what film capacitors do you use?
Konnichiwa,
They all are "Film Capacitors", yes.
How a "Film Capacitor" sounds results from a wide range of parameters, many of which are poorely researched. I know Metalised Mylar Capacitors that reliably sound better than certain axial (rolled, no case) Metalised Polypropylene Capacitors.
Simple blanket statements like "Teflon is best" and "Mylar sucks" miss the point totally. For example, typhical "axial" rolled capacitors as often found in coupling (including boutique types) tend to sound bad in many positions, simply because of microphonics. Often a cheap plastic encased cap will sound better.
For powersupplies I recommend Metal or plastic can encased capacitors, ideally oil filled, as this will severely cut microphonics. The dielectric quality becomes almost irelevant, especially with oil-filled types (check the dielectric constant of mineral oils...). Using the common Solen Axial types is an almost surefire way to sonic disaster.... Often indutrial "Motor Run" and "Lightning Phase Compensation" types have excellent sonic behaviour, thanks due to their "industrial strength" construction and oil filling.
In other cases available size and required values impose limits. In cathodes you are often limited to use Mylar, simply because a few 100uF in Polypropylene Capacitors do not come cheap. Wherever "limited quality" capacitors are that show at least good (anti) microphonic behaviour you can get a lot back with correct bypassing. Capacitors are a big topic and ideally their use is minimised and the quality maximised.
So, in the end the key issues I'd look for have more to do with mechanical construction and materials (eg certain magnetic steel encased Teflon Foil & Film Cap's sound rather worse than capacitrs in plastic cases) and it is often desirable to "sacrifice" a Cap or two from the kind you intend to use to the audio gods by dismembering them, to see how connections are made, how tightly they are wound and so on before comitting to use them (listening tests, ideally "bypass" type also help).
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
arnoldc said:
They all are "Film Capacitors", yes.
How a "Film Capacitor" sounds results from a wide range of parameters, many of which are poorely researched. I know Metalised Mylar Capacitors that reliably sound better than certain axial (rolled, no case) Metalised Polypropylene Capacitors.
Simple blanket statements like "Teflon is best" and "Mylar sucks" miss the point totally. For example, typhical "axial" rolled capacitors as often found in coupling (including boutique types) tend to sound bad in many positions, simply because of microphonics. Often a cheap plastic encased cap will sound better.
For powersupplies I recommend Metal or plastic can encased capacitors, ideally oil filled, as this will severely cut microphonics. The dielectric quality becomes almost irelevant, especially with oil-filled types (check the dielectric constant of mineral oils...). Using the common Solen Axial types is an almost surefire way to sonic disaster.... Often indutrial "Motor Run" and "Lightning Phase Compensation" types have excellent sonic behaviour, thanks due to their "industrial strength" construction and oil filling.
In other cases available size and required values impose limits. In cathodes you are often limited to use Mylar, simply because a few 100uF in Polypropylene Capacitors do not come cheap. Wherever "limited quality" capacitors are that show at least good (anti) microphonic behaviour you can get a lot back with correct bypassing. Capacitors are a big topic and ideally their use is minimised and the quality maximised.
So, in the end the key issues I'd look for have more to do with mechanical construction and materials (eg certain magnetic steel encased Teflon Foil & Film Cap's sound rather worse than capacitrs in plastic cases) and it is often desirable to "sacrifice" a Cap or two from the kind you intend to use to the audio gods by dismembering them, to see how connections are made, how tightly they are wound and so on before comitting to use them (listening tests, ideally "bypass" type also help).
Sayonara
I've never heard a mylar sound as good as even a cheap polypropylene, as long as the latter didn't incorporate magnetic materials and/or use stranded leads.
However, that reminds me of a bypass test a friend and I once did of some boutique metallized polypropylene cap (one of the original 'wondercaps' about 10uF, 310 VDC) that happened to have copperweld leads. The 3" of leads, once cut off the capacitor and listened to by themselves, added several times more audible degradation than the capacitor with the leads cut off 1/4" from the body did and both of us could reliably hear this.
The signal passing through the capacitor was line level and the ambient SPL averaged only in the mid to upper 80 db range during this listening test.
IAC, my overall experience with capacitors has led me to use electrolytics only when absolutely necessary, which means as (film bypassed) supply filters at the output stage of a power amplifier such as my DC coupled OTL or for filament supplies. Otherwise, I have used polypropylenes or better for everything around an audio path in stuff I've built since about 1980, except for a couple of low value polystyrenes which I couldn't easily find higher quality dielectric equivalents of. If I can get an air dielectric cap in a circuit, I'll use it.
For that matte, differences in dielectric quality have led to to replace all the Solo foil inductors in a speaker xover with Goertz? Why? Because the Goertz's polypropylene film sounded much more neutral, detailed and less 'hot' than the (either polycarbonate or mylar, I forget exactly) film used for the Solo chokes.
However, that reminds me of a bypass test a friend and I once did of some boutique metallized polypropylene cap (one of the original 'wondercaps' about 10uF, 310 VDC) that happened to have copperweld leads. The 3" of leads, once cut off the capacitor and listened to by themselves, added several times more audible degradation than the capacitor with the leads cut off 1/4" from the body did and both of us could reliably hear this.
The signal passing through the capacitor was line level and the ambient SPL averaged only in the mid to upper 80 db range during this listening test.
IAC, my overall experience with capacitors has led me to use electrolytics only when absolutely necessary, which means as (film bypassed) supply filters at the output stage of a power amplifier such as my DC coupled OTL or for filament supplies. Otherwise, I have used polypropylenes or better for everything around an audio path in stuff I've built since about 1980, except for a couple of low value polystyrenes which I couldn't easily find higher quality dielectric equivalents of. If I can get an air dielectric cap in a circuit, I'll use it.
For that matte, differences in dielectric quality have led to to replace all the Solo foil inductors in a speaker xover with Goertz? Why? Because the Goertz's polypropylene film sounded much more neutral, detailed and less 'hot' than the (either polycarbonate or mylar, I forget exactly) film used for the Solo chokes.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.