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Old 22nd January 2013, 05:39 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by popilin View Post
Hi Ian

I respect you a lot and last thing I want is to fight with you, don't screw up, please.

I too have no desire to fight. It's just I hear this term 'Hi-End' used a lot as if it has some specific meaning.. I just want to understand what it means but if you don't know that's fine.

Cheers

Ian
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Old 22nd January 2013, 10:09 PM   #22
popilin is offline popilin  Argentina
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I too have no desire to fight. It's just I hear this term 'Hi-End' used a lot as if it has some specific meaning.. I just want to understand what it means but if you don't know that's fine.

Cheers

Ian
OK, words are not my thing, but will do my best.

Hi-End etymologically derived from High-End, is the modern equivalent of Hi-Fi, we could say that Hi-End Audio refers to the high end of the Hi-Fi range.

Apparently the term was coined in the '60s by Stereophile magazine.

It is of course susceptible of various interpretations, the most commonly accepted terms of outstanding sound quality, build quality, and components used.

For others, it refers to the most expensive on the list.

As examples of Hi-End Audio Equipment

1) Vacuum State of Allen Wright

2) Wavebourn's Amplifiers, I could only criticize some colors used.

3) His Master's Noise by SY, although he doesn't get along well with the soldering iron.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 10:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popilin View Post
OK, words are not my thing, but will do my best.

Hi-End etymologically derived from High-End, is the modern equivalent of Hi-Fi, we could say that Hi-End Audio refers to the high end of the Hi-Fi range.

Apparently the term was coined in the '60s by Stereophile magazine.

It is of course susceptible of various interpretations, the most commonly accepted terms of outstanding sound quality, build quality, and components used.

For others, it refers to the most expensive on the list.

As examples of Hi-End Audio Equipment

1) Vacuum State of Allen Wright

2) Wavebourn's Amplifiers, I could only criticize some colors used.

3) His Master's Noise by SY, although he doesn't get along well with the soldering iron.
So it is a purely subjective term. There is no standard way to determine if a piece of audio equipment is high end?

Cheers

Ian
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Old 22nd January 2013, 11:16 PM   #24
popilin is offline popilin  Argentina
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Originally Posted by ruffrecords View Post
So it is a purely subjective term. There is no standard way to determine if a piece of audio equipment is high end?

Cheers

Ian

To my knowledge, the only for Hi-Fi, is the standard DIN 45500, not for Hi-End.

But the music itself is subjective, or is there any standard for composers ?
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Old 23rd January 2013, 10:22 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by popilin View Post
To my knowledge, the only for Hi-Fi, is the standard DIN 45500, not for Hi-End.

But the music itself is subjective, or is there any standard for composers ?
Interesting you should mention music. Of course what we are concerned with here is accurate reproduction of a recorded sound. It does not matter if the sound is music, speech, sound effects or electronically produced. It does not matter if I like the music or not. It does not matter if I like the performance or not. It does not matter if I like the way it was recorded or not. All of these factors are irrelevant to the reproduction chain as they are all a priori events so the reproduce chain has no influence on them. The only thing the reproduce chain can do it attempt to accurately reproduce the original recording.

I guess the definition of high end systems is that they aim to do it the most accurately.

I was lucky enough when I was at Neve in the 70s to visit many recording studios throughout the world and listen to many first generation recordings of both classical and popular music. I have to say the quality was absolutely stunning, so good I could not listen to any so called hi-fi system for many years without realising what a poor shadow of the original they reproduced. This was of course in the days before CD when vinyl ruled.

Today, with digital source material, the copy we have is much closer to the original first generation than ever so the possibility of accurate reproduction is better than ever.

I am not convinced however that any contribution to this accuracy is made by horrendously expensive capacitors, gold plated mains cables or $10,000 turn tables.

Cheers

Ian
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Old 23rd January 2013, 01:40 PM   #26
popilin is offline popilin  Argentina
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Originally Posted by ruffrecords View Post
Interesting you should mention music. Of course what we are concerned with here is accurate reproduction of a recorded sound. It does not matter if the sound is music, speech, sound effects or electronically produced. It does not matter if I like the music or not. It does not matter if I like the performance or not. It does not matter if I like the way it was recorded or not. All of these factors are irrelevant to the reproduction chain as they are all a priori events so the reproduce chain has no influence on them. The only thing the reproduce chain can do it attempt to accurately reproduce the original recording.
Totally agree with you.
The music is only an analogy to highlight the difficulty of establishing standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruffrecords View Post
I guess the definition of high end systems is that they aim to do it the most accurately.
That's the idea, you did the best definition of Hi-End !

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruffrecords View Post
I was lucky enough when I was at Neve in the 70s to visit many recording studios throughout the world and listen to many first generation recordings of both classical and popular music. I have to say the quality was absolutely stunning, so good I could not listen to any so called hi-fi system for many years without realising what a poor shadow of the original they reproduced. This was of course in the days before CD when vinyl ruled.
You're a lucky man, you were in the right place at the right time, good for you.

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Originally Posted by ruffrecords View Post
Today, with digital source material, the copy we have is much closer to the original first generation than ever so the possibility of accurate reproduction is better than ever.
What you say is true, however, is a controversial field.
Mathematically it can be estimated, based on the radius of the molecule of PVC, that a vinyl contains four to five times more information than a CD.
The problem is that the creators of digital audio were very stingy to take Niquist-Shannon sampling theorem at face value and limited the bandwidth to 20kHz, while a vinyl should cut at about 50KHz. Just to mention a difference...
They noticed the problem many years later, too late.
As in the formal sciences, what is sought is the best approximation to reality, here they failed in the recording process.IMHO.

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Originally Posted by ruffrecords View Post
I am not convinced however that any contribution to this accuracy is made by horrendously expensive capacitors, gold plated mains cables or $10,000 turn tables.

Cheers

Ian
The term "Hi-End" is also used to exploit the ignorance and people's money.
Just a bit of math to discover the truth.
I use good low capacitance signal cables and polypropylene capacitors was used in TVs and differences are inaudible.
Even worse, many "Audio Grade" capacitors, by its geometry are strongly inductive.
Surprisingly I found that between a turntable used by DJs and a 30,000 turntable, there is only 3dB rumble !
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Last edited by popilin; 23rd January 2013 at 02:00 PM. Reason: Tarzan-English
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Old 23rd January 2013, 04:50 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by popilin View Post
What you say is true, however, is a controversial field.
Mathematically it can be estimated, based on the radius of the molecule of PVC, that a vinyl contains four to five times more information than a CD.
This is not a true statement. It may be true that based on that calculation that vinyl has the potential to contain four to five times more information than a CD. Whether it achieves anything like this is a moot point given all the mechanical limitations inherent in the process of creation, replication and reproduction of vinyl.

My point about CD was that in a domestic environment it was easily capable of bettering the commonly available record player or cassette tape

Quote:
The term "Hi-End" is also used to exploit the ignorance and people's money.
Just a bit of math to discover the truth.
I use good low capacitance signal cables and polypropylene capacitors was used in TVs and differences are inaudible.
Even worse, many "Audio Grade" capacitors, by its geometry are strongly inductive.
Surprisingly I found that between a turntable used by DJs and a 30,000 turntable, there is only 3dB rumble !

Excellent. I am pleased to see you exercising good engineering judgement !!

Cheers

Ian
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Old 23rd January 2013, 05:00 PM   #28
SY is offline SY  United States
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Originally Posted by popilin View Post
Mathematically it can be estimated, based on the radius of the molecule of PVC, that a vinyl contains four to five times more information than a CD.
Would you base a calculation of the information contained in a digital file on the covalent radius of a silicon atom?
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Old 23rd January 2013, 07:44 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popilin View Post
... What you say is true, however, is a controversial field.
Mathematically it can be estimated, based on the radius of the molecule of PVC, that a vinyl contains four to five times more information than a CD.
The problem is that the creators of digital audio were very stingy to take Niquist-Shannon sampling theorem at face value and limited the bandwidth to 20kHz, while a vinyl should cut at about 50KHz. Just to mention a difference...
...
As other have pointed out, you are basing your assertions on an incomplete understanding of the physics. First, the radius of a stylus tip in contact with the groove spans many molecules, providing an averaging effect. You can't get "1 molecule width" resolution. Second, it is difficult and expensive to record frequencies higher than about 20 KHz, and almost all cartridges simply won't reproduce them with any accuracy anyway.

Expanding on the second point, at the cutting stage the lathe simply runs out of headroom as the frequency rises. The signal being fed to the cutting amplifiers and head is heavily boosted by the "reverse RIAA" equalisation curve. Also, the head requires more and more drive to obtain a given cutting velocity as the frequency rises. You can't keep boosting the power because the head will burn out. CD4 (quad) records, with frequencies up to 45 KHz, were cut at half speed. Standard stereo discs can also be cut at half speed, but this brings a new set of problems at the low frequency end.
Trying to record frequencies above about 20 KHz is mostly a waste of time, anyway. At the reproduction end, the stylus cantilever / suspension of most cartridges resonates somewhere between 19 KHz and 23 KHz. Output drops off rapidly above this point. This is a deliberate design choice, the increased output around resonance compensates for other losses that are becoming significant at these frequencies.

For further reading, I suggest this page:
Digital Vinyl ? !
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Old 23rd January 2013, 10:16 PM   #30
popilin is offline popilin  Argentina
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My point about CD was that in a domestic environment it was easily capable of bettering the commonly available record player or cassette tape
In this I totally agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruffrecords View Post
Excellent. I am pleased to see you exercising good engineering judgement !!

Cheers

Ian
Thanks Ian! coming from you I'm flattered.
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